Is dx ever truly equal to zero in integration theory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether \(dx\) can be considered equal to zero in integration theory, alongside related questions about the summation of zeroes and the probability of selecting a specific natural number from an infinite set. The scope includes theoretical considerations, mathematical reasoning, and conceptual clarifications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether an infinite number of zeroes summed up can equal a finite value, with varying interpretations of what this means.
  • There is debate over whether \(dx\) can be considered equal to zero, with some asserting that it cannot unless in specific mathematical contexts like hyperreals.
  • Participants discuss the expression \(2xdx\) and whether it can equal zero, with differing views on the conditions under which this might hold.
  • The probability of picking a specific natural number, such as 100, from the set of all natural numbers is described as zero, but the reasoning behind this is contested, particularly regarding the need for a probability distribution function.
  • Some participants emphasize the importance of defining terms like "probability" and "summing an infinite number of zeroes" to clarify the discussion.
  • There are conflicting interpretations of sequences and series, particularly regarding their convergence and the implications for sums of zeroes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the nature of \(dx\), the summation of zeroes, and the concept of probability in the context of infinite sets. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on these topics.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the ambiguity in definitions and interpretations, particularly regarding infinitesimals, probability distributions, and the summation of infinite series. The discussion reflects a range of mathematical perspectives without settling on a unified understanding.

  • #31
micromass said:
Associativity doesn't work in series. The general property only works for absolute convergent series.

That was my first thought too. It's very funny how they just pull out that 1, you could just as easily show that it is equal to 2 if you wanted. The conclusion in the back of the book is that the series is divergent, which I think is equivalent to what you said.
 
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  • #32
AdkinsJr said:
The conclusion in the back of the book is that the series is divergent, which I think is equivalent to what you said.

It's not, though. A series \Sigma a_n is called absolutely convergent if \Sigma |a_n| converges. A counterexample to show that this not being the case doesn't imply divergence (ie. a series doesn't have to be absolutely convergent to converge) is the alternating harmonic series (a_n=\frac{(-1)^{n+1}}{n}; \Sigma_{n=1}^{\infty}a_n=\ln(2)). It is not divergent, but as the harmonic series is, (|a_n|=\frac{1}{n}) it's not absolutely convergent either, and it's instead said that it converges conditionally.

In fact, I believe that Riemann proved a theorem ( I can't remember the exact name of the theorem) that essentially states that there exists a way to rearrange the terms of a conditionally convergent series so that the series can be made to diverge or to conditionally converge to any real number.

EDIT: It seems that it's called Riemann's Rearrangement Theorem.
 
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  • #33
Think of the sum:

1+1+1+1+1+1+...=-1/2

This sum is only well defined for ζ(0), but we will assume that it is always true, so we multiply both sides by a real variable 'a'.

From which we obtain:

a+a+a+a+a+...=-a/2

Let a=0

0+0+0+0+...=-0/2
0+0+0+0+...=0

That is the first approach.
 
  • #34
The second approach would be using the infinite geometric series:

1+x+x^2+x^3+x^4+...=1/(1-x), for abs(x)<1

We can subtract 1 from each side:

x+x^2+x^3+x^4+...=x/(x-1)

Let x=0

0+0+0+0+...=0
 
  • #35
The last approach is by adding the sum term by term:

0, 0+0, 0+0+0, 0+0+0+0, ...

We can carry writing this forever, but the answer will never change, thus the limit won't change.

Thus 0+0+0+...=0

We can also try averaging the partial sums, but we'll still end up with 0.
 
  • #36
micromass said:
Oh God. What did I write :cry: I corrected it.
I just emailed it to your advisor. Please don't email my gross mistakes to anyone :).
 
  • #37
Re dx=0 , since I am not fully clear of the context, if you mean in the way it is used in integration theory, then the answer is no;
actually, for a _ fixed Riemann sum_, dx is defined as the least value ##x_k -x_{k-1} ## , where the ##x_k ## are part of a partition of an interval (integrals on unbounded interval are a separate issue), and it takes on a well-defined minimum value.
For the actual Riemann integral, you consider the _limit_ as ## dx \rightarrow 0 ## , bt dx is itself not 0, at least not so in this sense of the word.
 

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