Is energy always conserved in a co-rotating frame?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the conservation of energy in co-rotating or accelerating frames, exploring the conditions under which energy conservation may or may not hold in such non-inertial reference frames. The scope includes theoretical considerations, mathematical formulations, and the implications of different types of motion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the specificity of the original query regarding the nature of the rotation and suggests that energy conservation should be evaluated through the Lagrangian of the system in the non-inertial frame.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need for accurate descriptions of the rotation or acceleration, proposing that a coordinate transformation or direct metric/Lagrangian representation is necessary for a proper analysis.
  • A different viewpoint presents a specific case for uniformly rotating frames, stating that energy conservation can be expressed through a particular equation, contingent on the forces being conservative.
  • Further elaboration is provided on the relationship between the Lagrangian's time dependence and the conservation of energy, indicating that if the Lagrangian is not time-dependent, certain energy integrals can be derived.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the conditions for energy conservation in co-rotating frames, with differing opinions on the necessary details and formulations required for analysis.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the specificity of the frame's motion, the dependence on definitions of energy in non-inertial frames, and the unresolved mathematical steps involved in deriving energy conservation conditions.

phantomvommand
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Is energy always conserved in a co-rotating/accelerating frame?
 
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This is a bit too unspecific. How is your frame rotating? The way to check "energy conservation" is to calculate the Lagrangian of the system in terms of the generalized coordinates parametrizing the in this case non-inertial frame. If the Lagrangian is not explicitly time-dependent then the associated Hamiltonian is conserved and you could with some right of analogy call the Hamiltonian the energy of the system.
 
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As @vanhees71 said, there is insufficient detail to answer the question. You would have to describe accurately the rotation/acceleration in question. You could do that either with a coordinate transform between an inertial frame and yours, or with the metric or Lagrangian written directly in your frame's coordinates.
 
As I think I wrote in one of your previous threads, there is a simple form of energy conservation that applies to uniformly rotating, non-translationally-accelerating frames, viz: ##\dfrac{d}{dt} \left( T - \frac{1}{2}I \Omega^2 \right) - \displaystyle{\sum_a} \mathbf{F}_a \cdot \mathbf{v}_a = 0##. If all of the ##\mathbf{F}_a## are conservative then ##\displaystyle{\sum_a} \mathbf{F}_a \cdot \mathbf{v}_a## is a total time derivative and you have a conserved energy.

For other systems, whether or not you can find energy integrals depends on whether there is time dependence in the lagrangian i.e. write ##H = \dot{q}^i \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}^i} - L## then if ##\partial L/\partial t=0## you have$$\dfrac{dH}{dt} = \dot{q}^i \dfrac{d}{dt} \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}^i} + \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}^i} \ddot{q}^i - \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial q^i} \dot{q}^i - \dfrac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}^i} \ddot{q}^i$$which equals zero.
 
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