History Is Fascism Tied to Ancient Paganism?

[marcus]

Yes, I believe that is correct. But I also feel it was a populist move, to rope the masses into Christianity by offering a compromise. Thanksgiving has strongly pagan roots.

the harvest!
and the spring stuff too

all those seasonal feasts

and now it is the pagan content of conventional church religion
which is the most fun part
most connected to nature and the cycles of the seasons
and family and friends and the human life cycle
mating reproduction birth death

all the ritual and festive response to these things were probably
made up pre-christian and just assimilated by christians (who were
originally just a split off sect of Judaism and didnt even allow
non-Jews to join)

some of the theology may be original but all the
fun stuff in christian practice is stolen

 

[Gokul43201]

This probably belongs in the book review section, but I'm posting it here, because of its relevance to this thread, and because there are more likely to be knowledgeable folks looking here. So here goes...

What do you think about The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown ? Is it fairly accurate in its description of pagan history and rituals ...and the influence and evolution of the Church ?

 

[marcus]

This probably belongs in the book review section, but I'm posting it here, because of its relevance to this thread, and because there are more likely to be knowledgeable folks looking here. So here goes...

What do you think about The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown ? Is it fairly accurate in its description of pagan history and rituals ...and the influence and evolution of the Church ?

I will copy this at the end of this post too because I don't want people who have read Davinci Code to miss a chance to respond. How we see prechristian mentality and practice is (or seems to me anyway) important just now.

I just wanted to interject something else:

prechristian or pagan people are so important to Dante---the roman poet Virgil leads him thru more than half of his space odyssey----and he has a special nice place for Virtuous Pagans----he is trying to sort the whole thing out. And the strongest non-Christian voice in the whole three books of the D.C. is that of Ulysses-----and listen: it is an empiricist voice calling on his fellow voyagers to experience the sphericalness of the world by sailing around the world.

Ulysses, in the greatest speech in the Inferno---recalls how he asked his comrades to sail around the world with him. dante was born in 1265. no one had done this. it is a very european idea to do it

In his speech he does not mention any god or gods, nothing supernatural enters. He says look we have a limited time in which to experience the world with our senses, let's not deny this experience of what the other side of the ball is like

Dante was very interested in the physcial lay out of things (as were greeks before and Kepler and those who followed) and the fact that it was a bunch of concentric spheres and there was an antipodal point to Rome was important to him. Ulysses is the non-christian empirical voice that speaks to the sphericalness of the universe----maybe Ulysses (instead of the devil) is the antipode of Dante's divinity. In any case he is Dante's prime Pagan

and Ulysses' speech from the Inferno:

"frati," dissi, "chi per cento miglia
perigli siete giunti al occidente,
a questa tanto picciola vigilia

dei nostri sensi ch'e del rimanente
non volete negar l'esperienza
di retro al sol, del mondo senza gente

considerate le vostre semenza
fatti non foste a viver come brutti
ma per sequir virtute e conoscenza."

--------------------

[literal transl.:
brothers, I said, who through a myriad
dangers have reached the west,
in this so brief waking time

remaining to our senses
you don't want to deny experience
of the sun's path and the unpeopled world

consider your breeding/what engendered you
you were not made to live as brutes
but to follow virtue and knowledge]


whatever mistakes of spelling (which in the case of
the Dante would probably be quite a few) and
punctuation are because the italian is copied from memory
when Kennedy gave that speech "We choose to go to the moon"
it was like that
certain kinds of fundamentalism are, I think, a desecration of the universe
and a sacrilege to evolving nature and a crude insult to every one
of her 13.7 billion years
those who deny the understanding of nature that humans have achieved do, in my estimation, pee on the altar of natural law
but Dante was not one of those: he could hear the voice of Ulysses
calling to his comrades at the Gates of Hecules and saying let's test the model empirically, if it really is a ball let's sail around it

What do you think about The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown ? Is it fairly accurate in its description of pagan history and rituals ...and the influence and evolution of the Church ?

 

[Njorl]

i have read that ancient christianity was the new religion integrated with paganism...holidays such as christmas and easter were decided on the time of year that they were to incorporate the new ways of the christians (winter solstice and the beginning of spring) along with pagan ways of life...it was a slow process that eventually gave the society of the times the impression that paganism was evil and christianity was the way, although chrisitanity bases many of its holidays right along with pagan ones...

Ya' know, I was in my 30s before I realized that the eggs and rabbits we associate with Easter are taken from pagan fertility festivals. Hmmm, eggs rabbits, springtime ... how'd I miss that!

I learned recently that painting eggs for a springtime holiday is a Zoroastrian tradition dating back about 2500 years.

The date of Easter is pretty well set by its reference to passover, which I'm sure was not alterred to fit into pagan schemes, but the date of Christmas was set to the traditional feastday of Mithra. It's not a big deal. Until recently, Christmas was not considered one of the most important holy days, it was down the list from Easter, Good Friaday, Ash Wednesday, pentecost, Ascenension, Assumption and probably a few others.

Njorl

 

[Prometheus]

some of the theology may be original but all the
fun stuff in christian practice is stolen

Stolen is a very strong word that is highly loaded.

Religion has been evoving for millennia. The ancient Greek religion of the Olympians evolved out of the religion of the Titans, etc.

Christianity did not appear in a vacuum. It evolved out of earlier religions. To say that it stole from them is like saying that you stole from your teachers, as you incorporate the ideas that they exposed you to.

 

[Evo]

Stolen is a very strong word that is highly loaded.

Religion has been evoving for millennia. The ancient Greek religion of the Olympians evolved out of the religion of the Titans, etc.

Christianity did not appear in a vacuum. It evolved out of earlier religions. To say that it stole from them is like saying that you stole from your teachers, as you incorporate the ideas that they exposed you to.

A lot of Christian holidays did not evolve from earlier religions, they were actually stolen (or borrowed, if that sounds nicer). Early Christian priests, when they found that many followers were reverting to paganism because the pagans had more fun feasts, decided to invent Christian holidays that coincided with pagan ones in an attempt to lure people back.

 

[marcus]

A lot of Christian holidays did not evolve from earlier religions, they were actually stolen (or borrowed, if that sounds nicer). Early Christian priests, when they found that many followers were reverting to paganism because the pagans had more fun feasts, decided to invent Christian holidays that coincided with pagan ones in an attempt to lure people back.

you are right to suggest a synonym, evo
I was thinking things like "adopted from, copied from, imitated from..."
said "stolen from" partly in jest
(the original grinch who stole christmas was a frustrated bishop who wanted to compete with pagan yule?)

BTW I understand the first "carols" were grassroots or popular fun singing often accompanied by dance and were discouraged by the establishment
caroling was forbidden because it wasnt serious enough---not enough like a wellbehaved mass

one of the strongpoints of established religions is that they have a cultural patina acquired over centuries of people modifying them to make them have broader appeal, and some of the results----like easter celebrations and christmas carols and mardigras(?) are rather nice

not knowledgeable enough, have to stop meandering

 

[BoulderHead]

Ishtar eggs, Tammuz trees, Yala logs, planned observance of ‘our’ holidays with ‘their’ holidays, etc. There was a method behind it though it didn’t all happen instantly (Christmas not celebrated until the third or forth century, for example). Pope Gregory 1st’s edict (having to do with Halloween) is a pretty clear example of the strategy;

By 600 A.D., Christianity was firmly in place in most of Europe and according to medieval documents (many housed in the Vatican today) Pope Gregory I, in an attempt to eradicate pagan celebrations, such as Samhain, issued what many considered to be a famous edict to his priests and Christian missionaries. They were instructed to use the native’s customs and beliefs and consecrated them to Christ, thereby evangelizing the richness of each culture as a means of spreading Christianity.

Taken from;
http://www.nasjax.navy.mil/JAX%20AIR%20NEWS/31oct02halloween.htm


Or, worded another way;

As a result of their efforts to wipe out "pagan" holidays, such as Samhain, the Christians succeeded in effecting major transformations in it. In 601 A.D. Pope Gregory the First issued a now famous edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert. Rather than try to obliterate native peoples' customs and beliefs, the pope instructed his missionaries to use them: if a group of people worshipped a tree, rather than cut it down, he advised them to consecrate it to Christ and allow its continued worship.

In terms of spreading Christianity, this was a brilliant concept and it became a basic approach used in Catholic missionary work. Church holy days were purposely set to coincide with native holy days. Christmas, for instance, was assigned the arbitrary date of December 25th because it corresponded with the mid-winter celebration of many peoples. Likewise, St. John's Day was set on the summer solstice.

taken from;
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/celtsmyth/a/lochalloween.htm

 

[marcus]

Ishtar eggs, Tammuz trees, Yala logs, ... "pagan" holidays, such as Samhain
taken from;
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/celtsmyth/a/lochalloween.htm

Boulderhead I'm at the same time interested and skeptical about some of these claims

I have heard people say "Samhain" but I don't know of any reliable source regarding it. Do we know if there was a festival named Samhain in pre-christ europe?
What does "Ishtar eggs" refer to?-----Ishtar was a godess of the Babylonians who spoke a Semitic language and had no cultural links with the Celts AFAIK. there is no etymological link between the godess name "Ishtar" and the Germanic root of "Easter"


I am willing to believe that there was some pre-christ European holiday around Summer Solstice and that in accordance with Pope Gregory (a great pope who promoted the monastic movement and good music) the church co-opted the Solstice by putting SaintJohn's squarely on top of it! this is credible.
But does anyone know what Celtic or Germanic name was used (really) for the Solstice festival by some definite tribe of pre-X people? Do we really know of some definite tribe calling it This-hain or That-hain?

it's potentially interesting and would be great to have a link to some solid scholarship about this, or even better some translated contemporary source-material?

 

[BoulderHead]

I have heard people say "Samhain" but I don't know of any reliable source regarding it.

I don’t know what you consider a reliable source.

Do we know if there was a festival named Samhain in pre-christ europe?

Hmmm, I don’t understand what you’re after here. Are you doubting any festival existed, or disputing the name as known to those doing the celebrating? For instance, if the Celts called it Y&*$@(> and others, possibly later, referred to is as Samhain, would not the festival have been held? Or, are you thinking in terms of showing this festival may have existed, by whatever name, but wasn’t observed prior to the advent of Xianity, therefore allowing some possibility that Xianity may not have co-opted it?

What does "Ishtar eggs" refer to?-----Ishtar was a godess of the Babylonians who spoke a Semitic language and had no cultural links with the Celts AFAIK. there is no etymological link between the godess name "Ishtar" and the Germanic root of "Easter"

To answer your question about what Ishtar eggs refer to, I was alluding to a broader observance of similarity between ancient pagan practices and those of the modern age. Maybe those comments were out of context for the line you are pursing, dunno. My interest isn’t really with the process, but more with noting similarities of observance, symbols, practices, etc. I believe there is more to the story than simple co-opting by order of some pope, but that will digress too much.

I am willing to believe that there was some pre-christ European holiday around Summer Solstice and that in accordance with Pope Gregory (a great pope who promoted the monastic movement and good music) the church co-opted the Solstice by putting SaintJohn's squarely on top of it! this is credible.

My post was meant to show the philosophy and practice of the Church with respect to other religions and their observances/practices. It would seem the Pope’s Edict makes clear the policy to be followed and you expressed willingness to accept this happening in at least this particular case, which is enough to satisfy my intent.

 

[Nicomachus]

Stolen is a very strong word that is highly loaded.

Religion has been evoving for millennia. The ancient Greek religion of the Olympians evolved out of the religion of the Titans, etc.

Christianity did not appear in a vacuum. It evolved out of earlier religions. To say that it stole from them is like saying that you stole from your teachers, as you incorporate the ideas that they exposed you to.

huh? The religion of the Titans? You know that "Titan" is a name that refers to a group of gods in the ancient Greek religions, right? Anyway, as far as the word "stolen" is concerned, if the shoe fits ... Let us say plagiarized then. Apollonius ... Mithra ... do any of these ring bells?
*Nico

 

[Prometheus]

huh?

Hello Nico.

The religion of the Titans? You know that "Titan" is a name that refers to a group of gods in the ancient Greek religions, right?

Excellent. You are correct. It is a safe bet that if I cite the Titans I do in fact know who and what they were.

Anyway, as far as the word "stolen" is concerned, if the shoe fits ... Let us say plagiarized then. Apollonius ... Mithra ... do any of these ring bells?
*Nico

You certainly have a right to your opinion, and it is clear that others share it. To me, however, there is more to the story. The point that I am trying to make is that religions evolve over time, and that they do not do so in a vacuum. While "stealing" is certinaly a possibiity, I tend to think that as similar cultures evolve through similar stages, such as the ancient Greeks from the stage of the Titans to the stage of the Olympians to the stage of monotheism, their similarities in cultural and environmental development and experience cause them to tend to develop similar religious concepts, such that they would tend to develop similar holidays with somewhat similar symbolism around similar astronomical events, such as the winter solstice.

 

[PookieBuns]

If you are truly looking into paganism I suggest you read some texts from the last major pagansit movement that history has seen. The movement was called fascism. A man by the name of Adolph Hitler believed that if he could strip germany of judeo-christian traditions and reintroduce the ancient pagan customs, rituals and beliefs that he could bring germany back to its roots and create a true arian state free of any jewish influence (ie judaism and christianity). Hitler knew that he was more than capable of completely eradicating the german jews, but the chrisitans were a different story. He could not contend with the masses, so he decied to pervert the christian religion in germany and force it to conform to his new order. Anyway, fascism began as a thriving ideology about a decade before the rise of nazi germany. They believed in the worship of nature (pagan), extreme environmentalism, the equality of every man...most of the closely held convictions of modern liberalism. Now, of course, that whole equality thing changed once hitler took power. But that is only because the whole "supoerior german state" aspect had a higher priority. If you would like more details please feel free to reply back!