Is going to lecture a huge waste of time?

[johng23]

I honestly think lectures are more for people who are too lazy to actually read the book themselves and hope for just enough of an understanding of the course material to get by with a passing mark.

This comment seemed to draw a lot of criticism, but I have absolutely experienced this. I have met multiple people who wouldn't think of reading the book chapters. I studied the chapters front to back. Reading a book by yourself requires you to think harder - those who wouldn't read it are the same people who just go to office hours to drag all the information they can out of the apathetic TA. I have been to office hours about twice in my life, and I was amazed at the sort of information the TA was just freely giving out.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Arrogance and learning don't mix.

 

[Choppy]

This comment seemed to draw a lot of criticism, but I have absolutely experienced this. I have met multiple people who wouldn't think of reading the book chapters. I studied the chapters front to back. Reading a book by yourself requires you to think harder - those who wouldn't read it are the same people who just go to office hours to drag all the information they can out of the apathetic TA. I have been to office hours about twice in my life, and I was amazed at the sort of information the TA was just freely giving out.

I think you're missing the point of the criticism.

Obviously there are lazy people out there. I've met them. I've taught them (or at least tried to).

But Coreluccio's argument was that lectures are for people too lazy to read the course material - and this appears to imply that if you go to lectures, you're being lazy and not learning the material for yourself. While there will be cases where this is true, it most certainly does not apply gobally.

 

[ashnek]

Well i understood Coreluccio's argument in another way, it sounded like most classes were made so that their purpose was to give the material so you wouldn't have to look it up in the book aka for lazy people, it doesn't imply that you are lazy if you go its just the way its done.
Im not saying all teachers do that, sadly most of the ones i had were like that but the bad classes i attended were pure recitation of the book

 

[Dembadon]

...
But Coreluccio's argument was that lectures are for people too lazy to read the course material - and this appears to imply that if you go to lectures, you're being lazy and not learning the material for yourself. ...

Not only that, but he's deduced this while only in his first year of an engineering program.

 

[coreluccio]

Most students don't read the textbook. I've seen it first hand. I didn't go to a single Chem lecture and smoked the class average by 30%. I read the book, fully understood the material, did problems, and the test was a joke for me. In contrast, most of the class just went to class, attempted the problem sets from the book that the prof assigned, and maybe reviewed the lecture notes. Not everyone operates like this, but the majority seem to.

 

[romsofia]

Most students don't read the textbook. I've seen it first hand. I didn't go to a single Chem lecture and smoked the class average by 30%. I read the book, fully understood the material, did problems, and the test was a joke for me. In contrast, most of the class just went to class, attempted the problem sets from the book that the prof assigned, and maybe reviewed the lecture notes. Not everyone operates like this, but the majority seem to.

Did you get 100% on this test?
If not, this test obviously wasn't a joke, and a few people who went to the lecture got equal/higher scores than you.

This discussion is clear: For some people the lecture is a waste of time, while for others it isn't.

 

[johng23]

Most students don't read the textbook. I've seen it first hand. I didn't go to a single Chem lecture and smoked the class average by 30%. I read the book, fully understood the material, did problems, and the test was a joke for me. In contrast, most of the class just went to class, attempted the problem sets from the book that the prof assigned, and maybe reviewed the lecture notes. Not everyone operates like this, but the majority seem to.

What you're saying is that it's possible to do well without going to any lectures. I doubt anyone would deny that. That doesn't necessarily imply that lectures are a waste of time.

 

[GregJ]

Most students don't read the textbook.

1st year hmm? This will change soon enough

 

[coreluccio]

Just thought I'd update on my progress. Finished up my 1st term of engineering and now have all my grades back. I got a 3.8/4.0 GPA and was one bombed midterm (got a bad night's sleep, unfortunately) from a perfect 4.0. I didn't attend a single lecture after the first week of school. Lectures, at least for me, are a waste of time.

 

[mathwonk]

please don't let me get you as a doctor (engineer, architect, lawyer...) , if you think the purpose of school is just to get decent grades. did it ever dawn on you that attending class might have taught you something valuable by listening to the carefully prepared lectures of someone who knows more than you do? If you attend school at any reasonable school at all, and do not attend every class when you are not sick, you are... I cannot say this politely so I leave it to your imagination, but it rhymes with *****.

If you are indeed correct in your behavior, then why are you paying to attend a school where the lectures are not useful? Are you a talented student who has accepted a bribe to attend a school for imbeciles? Do you realize how you will be regarded when you exit such a school?

My apologies but obviously I regard this as one of the most clueless threads I have ever seen here.

 

[deRham]

I don't think classes / lectures in general are terrible. It's probably more ideal to have someone record the lectures for the giant classes that teach an introductory subject to a bunch of students.

The major value of classes as opposed to purely individual instruction is that they present material at one time in the format and with the choice of material of someone who supposedly has a perspective you may want to hear. A perspective that really crystallizes how to think about something, which may not be immediately present in all the books.

Chances are, by looking up 10 different books and researching various notes written by various people, you can figure out a reasonably good perspective on a topic. But if an expert already is there to tell you about that stuff, why not?

It was said you can leave the school if it's not offering what you want. I ask: well, why even the school? One can leave the class. Take a different one!

Independent studying is great too. A lot of things have to be learned that way. But it simply doesn't make sense to me why a professor can't present a ton of stuff in an organized fashion in a single class that a student really wants to understand well.

There are a LOT of poor classes conducted out there, which I myself would skip if I had to take them. But that's the point -- I usually wouldn't have to take them, and indeed, I wouldn't have chosen to.

 

[deRham]

Now if it happens that there are lectures with information that can't be obtained in any book, then fine I will put in the effort to listen. I expect this to happen in my graduate studies and at conferences. I won't be happy about it though...

I feel it's not even necessarily information. It's often perspective.

If a lecture is basically delivering the material of a text without much clarification or perspective that is helping, sometimes it might just be the wrong lecture for you. If I had to go through such a requirement, I'd definitely stick to the book and occasional office hours.

I also learn better by style from books or research articles or one on one conversation, but I can gain a lot from a lecture/conference by resolving to jot down the ideas and think about them by myself using ample resources later.

Also, in small lectures, particularly when a professor is lecturing to peers, it is often more like a friendly but also serious dialogue where one guy is put on the spot than anything else.

 

[deRham]

I honestly think lectures are more for people who are too lazy to actually read the book themselves and hope for just enough of an understanding of the course material to get by with a passing mark.

People learn in different ways. And lots of people, if not most BOTH attend lectures and read the text.

Based on a single mid-term you've found a system that works for you. That's great. But why would you call someone lazy who learns in a different way?

I get where he's coming from, because sometimes the lectures just cover less than the book, and if they're just going through powerpoints, often it's just summarizing material. I honestly have used lectures as a way to do less work if I needed to get through a requirement that was simply not what I felt like spending time on at that time - one can often pass by learning just the lecture material, and needs to read the book for further detail.

That said, I don't agree that lectures are for the lazy primarily. What they are intended for is to be a useful thing to combine with a book, or even a stand-alone source.

In a lot of advanced classes, there is no book. You'll just have lectures by an expert.

And I can bet you those lectures go many times faster than almost any book, if not every book, you'll find on the same subject.

Don't conclude anything too soon :)

 

[genericusrnme]

Most of the time for me I've already learned the material covered in lectures
That's because I spent almost 2 years studying non stop before I applied for university and I'm guessing as long as I keep up this rate of studying I should be ahead all the way..

I don't think my case is that normal however
Also, during my pre-enrollment studying I would have killed to have been able to talk to someone who knew the material I was trying to learn at times, a lot of books are very poorly written.

If I wasn't in that situation however I'd say lectures are pretty important (at least after your first year)

 

[nickadams]

Guys the OP wasn't saying that lectures are bad; he was just saying that he could watch them online so he didn't need to physically attend class. And then if he needs further professor help then he can go to office hours.

What is wrong with that?

 

[mathwonk]

i wish i were in a class where everyone had that attitude. then i would be the only one in lecture, and i could ask all my own questions.

 

[nonequilibrium]

i wish i were in a class where everyone had that attitude. then i would be the only one in lecture, and i could ask all my own questions.

I'm practically in this case: almost everyone goes to class, but I'm the only who asks questions. I don't like that, actually.

 

[Mororvia]

I'm practically in this case: almost everyone goes to class, but I'm the only who asks questions. I don't like that, actually.

Ah, so you're that guy ;)

 

[nonequilibrium]

So you're the guy that keeps sighing when I raise my hand?

 

[Kalidor]

Just my 2 cents. I'm an italian math student, and lectures cannot be watched online or on youtube here, but most topics can be learned from a textbook or you can grab the class notes from other students if you're friendly enough. Through my undergraduate years, roughly from the second year on, I started skipping lectures from time to time. Seeing that I'd find the material on the book I soon started skipping ALL lectures consistently. This caused me big troubles when test time came around and I usually had to put in double the effort (wrt students attending class) only to get average grades (for several reasons: I often studied more material then necessary but more superficially, sometimes professors were irritated because I showed up on test day and they'd never seen my face before, etc.). Instead of making me realize I was on the wrong path, my average grades only made me lose enthusiasm for the subjects and I soon found myself on a downward spiral, becoming completely detached from uni (I went there ONLY on test days) which led to even worse results, which led to me basically wasting 2 years doing nothing. Then I started to attend a Quantum mechanics class at the physics department, just for fun, and the lecturer was so good I actually started attending class everyday and gradually going back to being an actual student, 'cause I realized what I'd been missing. So my point really is that even though you might be a better person than I was and keep from degenerating completely like I did, skipping classes is a somewhat lazy behavior that promotes drifting away from your studies and university life (except partying) with potentially terrible consequences. I strongly urge you not to make the same mistakes I did.

N.B.
Also consider that education here is practically free (1000$ per year) so I never felt I was wasting much money by not attending. If I'd had to pay huge tuition fees, I'd probably never have stopped attending

 

[EngCommand]

Lectures just don't do anything for me. I can't concentrate for more than 20 minutes, and I'm easily distracted if I don't find the lecture or lecturer interesting.

At undergraduate level I was either too far behind to understand a given lecture, or I was too far ahead for it to be of any use.

For me, going to lectures was a totally inefficient use of my time. I prefer to read textbooks, journals or watch interesting online video lectures. I guess everybody is different. In particular, I love Sal Khan's math/science videos at Khanacademy.org, I think Sal has really hit the nail on the head when it comes to efficient learning. I wish he'd created the videos 10 years ago (when I was only 15), I would have gobbled them all up in a few weeks.

 

[coreluccio]

please don't let me get you as a doctor (engineer, architect, lawyer...) , if you think the purpose of school is just to get decent grades. did it ever dawn on you that attending class might have taught you something valuable by listening to the carefully prepared lectures of someone who knows more than you do? If you attend school at any reasonable school at all, and do not attend every class when you are not sick, you are... I cannot say this politely so I leave it to your imagination, but it rhymes with *****.

If you are indeed correct in your behavior, then why are you paying to attend a school where the lectures are not useful? Are you a talented student who has accepted a bribe to attend a school for imbeciles? Do you realize how you will be regarded when you exit such a school?

My apologies but obviously I regard this as one of the most clueless threads I have ever seen here.

The purpose of school is to gain the most amount of knowledge possible in your area of study while developing the skills necessary to be successful in whatever you plan to do in life. I get far, far more out of reading the textbook than I do out of attending lectures. This archaic idea of attending a meeting where a bunch of people mindlessly write down what another person says/writes needs to go.

 

[dotman]

I get far, far more out of reading the textbook than I do out of attending lectures. This archaic idea of attending a meeting where a bunch of people mindlessly write down what another person says/writes needs to go.

The thing is, they're not mutually exclusive. You can read the textbook and go to class. You would literally have to get nothing out of it for it not to be worth your while.

And since it gives you a chance to engage with a knowledgeable person on the subject, I don't see how you can get absolutely nothing out of it.

 

[lisab]

The thing is, they're not mutually exclusive. You can read the textbook and go to class. You would literally have to get nothing out of it for it not to be worth your while.

And since it gives you a chance to engage with a knowledgeable person on the subject, I don't see how you can get absolutely nothing out of it.

Plus, some books are abysmal.

 

[nonequilibrium]

Plus, some books are abysmal.

True, but I constatate that whenever I've had a bad book, my professor was even worse...

 

[Moonbear]

I notice that more and more med students in my class have figured out by now that they don't need to attend lectures anymore to get good grades. Attendance can be sparse. Every lecture is recorded and can be watched online anyway. So what's the point of lectures? Almost all material covered is in some textbook or can be found with a quick google search anyway. Are lectures an obsolete artifact within higher education? I mean I guess lectures were useful back in the day before information wasn't as easily copied and disseminated. It's 2011 though, almost every single concept taught in a university can be studied by somebody with a library card and internet access at home. What's the point of going to lecture then? I really only find lectures useful only if they go over problem sets/examples rather than going over concepts. Every concept is already discussed in a textbook.

It depends on the lecture. Some of the people who lecture in our med course never budge from behind the podium the entire time, and I'm sure they could just record their lectures at their desks and post them online and students would get just as much out of them as showing up to class. I struggle to convince students exposed to too many of those lectures that they really should show up for mine. I think they're probably freaking out about now, because today I just told them I'm picking up the pace and no longer going over basics they can read for themselves in their textbook. Instead, I use lectures to cover conceptual themes and application. I also demonstrate things that photographs and 2D illustrations don't show clearly, and really need to be explained by demonstrating movement. I'm also still a fan of Socratic method of presenting a basic concept and then asking students in the class to think about it and offer explanations of why or how the concept applies to a particular scenario. Audience discussion doesn't record well.

But, then with anatomy, I do think the majority of learning happens during lab, and lecture just needs to hit the highlights of the tough stuff. That's why I was grumbling elsehere about someone else on the faculty with me who keeps turning lab time into supplemental lectures. He spoonfeeds them all the material I intentionally don't cover in lectures and the students lap it up while it pisses me off to no end that it completely undermines the method I choose to use for the material I cover.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm practically in this case: almost everyone goes to class, but I'm the only who asks questions. I don't like that, actually.

As long as you aren't interrupting so often as to be disruptive, it's appreciated to have an interested, engaged student in lecture. Though, if you're asking more than two or three questions during a lecture, it might be more appropriate to jot them down and ask after class or during office hours.

Personally, as a professor, I agree that too many lectures are just spoon feeding the textbook to students, and are an ineffective way of teaching. This isn't news to anyone who knows anything about good teaching methods. Good teaching employs a variety of classroom approaches beyond the lecture itself. I teach an undergrad nursing course in anatomy and physiology that I developed from scratch and the students love, and is a much better example of how I think classes should be taught than the med course I have to teach more consistent with the curriculum set up long before I arrived. I don't just give straight lectures from the text. Instead, my lectures in the nursing course pull together material from multiple chapters to show how systems are interrelated. I also provide clinical examples and additional material not included in any textbook. I actually had sophomores reading research articles by giving them a little synopsis of the content and leaving them on the course website as optional reading. I had my students break into small groups and do team learning exercises. I finally got the kinks worked out of those and had an incredibly enthusiastic class competing to see who could get done first (they had to answer the first question correctly before I let them move to the second, etc., and if it took more than two tries, they had to explain their answer to me to be sure they understood and weren't just guessing). I included demonstrations and audience participation. This involved things like playing with jump ropes and tossing nerf balls around the room. My favorite was shaking up a sealed bottle of seltzer water and handing it to a student and asking them to open it. I asked them why not when they refused...there were no visible bubbles. I'm willing to bet they will never forget how pressure changes across the respiratory membrane affect gas solubility in blood. Those are the types of topics where I saw near perfect response rates on the related exam questions. This was all done during their scheduled lecture time, and I had full lectures most days (the exception being the day before Thanksgiving break when those who attended got a pop quiz that required them to demonstrate they could sign their name on a piece of paper...tee hee...just a tiny reward for those who didn't bail out early for the break).

 

[EngCommand]

The thing is, they're not mutually exclusive. You can read the textbook and go to class. You would literally have to get nothing out of it for it not to be worth your while.

And since it gives you a chance to engage with a knowledgeable person on the subject, I don't see how you can get absolutely nothing out of it.

If you have an hour of time to spend, and you get more out of reading a textbook instead of attending a lecture, then obviously it's not worth you're while attending...

Simples...

 

[Kalidor]

I used to attend a course with an indian student who asked at least a dozen questions during each lecture. I wanted to stab him.