Is Hawking's statement of Raychaudhuri's equation wrong?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of Hawking's statement of the Raychaudhuri equation as presented in his lectures. Participants are examining the differences between Hawking's formulation and other commonly referenced versions of the equation, particularly focusing on the definitions and implications of the variables involved.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant points out a discrepancy in the formulation of the Raychaudhuri equation as stated by Hawking compared to other sources, noting a sign difference and the factor of n.
  • Another participant questions the page reference and the definition of the variable ##\rho## in Hawking's work, suggesting that it seems unlikely for Hawking to have made a mistake.
  • It is noted that while Hawking does provide a definition of ##\rho##, it is not rigorous, leading to uncertainty about its relationship to the expansion scalar ##\theta##.
  • A participant proposes that ##\rho## might be a generalization of ##\theta##, which could explain the differences in notation and sign.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of changing the affine parameter on the form of the equation, suggesting that the equation should be form-invariant under such changes.
  • Another participant highlights that the term "average convergence" used by Hawking may clarify the sign difference, and speculates that the factor n could relate to this average, while also questioning the absence of a factor in front of the shear term.
  • There is mention of various versions of the Raychaudhuri equation found in literature, indicating a lack of consensus on the terminology and formulation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of Hawking's equation and its definitions, with no consensus reached on whether Hawking's statement is incorrect or simply a different formulation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of the discrepancies.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the definitions provided by Hawking, particularly regarding the variable ##\rho## and its relationship to the expansion scalar ##\theta##. There is also uncertainty about the implications of changing the affine parameter on the equation's form.

jinawee
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In Hawkin's lectures: http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9409195v1, he states that the Raychaudhuri equation
\dot \rho=\rho^2+\sigma^{ab}\sigma_{ab}+\frac 1 n R_{ab}l^a l^b with n=2 for null geodesics and n=3 for timelike geodesics.

But in most places I've seen \dot \theta=-\frac 1 n \theta^2-\sigma^{ab}\sigma_{ab}-\ R_{ab}l^a l^b It doesn't seem they are equivalent because there is a switched sign and the n factor. Is this an errata?
 
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What page of the lectures is this on? What is the definition of ##\rho##? If you have access to Hawking and Ellis, can you see how it compares on this topic?

Seems unlikely that Hawking would simply goof on this. This is the kind of thing that he made his career out of.
 
It's on page 8 but he doesn't define ρ. I'll use the other equation, which is the one used in Hawking & Ellis, Carroll, etc.
 
jinawee said:
It's on page 8 but he doesn't define ρ. I'll use the other equation, which is the one used in Hawking & Ellis, Carroll, etc.

He does, right below the box.
 
martinbn said:
He does, right below the box.

I meant a rigorous definition to compare it with Hawking & Ellis.
 
martinbn said:
He does, right below the box.

But it's only a verbal definition, not a mathematical one. It's not clear to me whether there is some difference between the quantity ##\rho## he's defining and the expansion scalar ##\theta##, possibly by a factor of ##n##. If there is some difference, it would explain why he notates it ##\rho## rather than ##\theta##.

Note that he says:

One can see this from the Raychaudhuri or Newman-Penrose equation, which I will write in a unified form.

So we shouldn't expect it to be identical to the Raychaudhuri equation, we should expect the Raychaudhuri equation to be a special case of it. It may be that ##\rho## is a generalization of ##\theta##.

Re the sign, note that the affine parameter ##v## is arbitrary, and if we replace it with ##-v## it's still a valid affine parameter. I guess the equation is supposed to be form-invariant under a change of affine parameter, but it's not manifestly so.
 
Ok, I see what you meant by no definition. He says that it is the average convergence. For him that may be as clear as any of the other terms, for example the shear. So just the name is enough. Since it is convergence and not expansion that would explain the sign difference. The average must be where the factor n comes from, but it seems that there should be a factor in front of the shear. Anyway, google shows various versions of the equation under all combinations of the names Raychaudhuri, Newman, Penrose.
 
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