Is ice truly crystalline or just a jumble of microscopic structures?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of ice, specifically whether it is truly crystalline or consists of a jumble of microscopic structures. Participants explore the conditions under which ice crystals can be observed and the factors influencing crystal formation, including freezing rates and temperature changes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that ice does contain crystals, but they may not be visible without specific conditions or equipment.
  • Others propose that the rate of freezing affects crystal size, with slower freezing leading to larger, more visible crystals.
  • A participant mentions that ice crystals can form in a thin sheet of water, making them observable.
  • One participant questions the organization of the crystal structure in ice cubes, suggesting it may be a mix of microscopic structures rather than a uniform crystalline pattern.
  • Another participant shares an experience from a chemistry lab where rapid cooling led to the formation of visible ice crystals, indicating that temperature changes play a significant role in crystallization.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the nature of ice crystals, with some asserting that they are present while others question the uniformity and organization of these structures. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the precise nature of ice's crystalline properties.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention different conditions for observing ice crystals, such as freezing rates and temperature variations, but do not reach a consensus on the overall structure of ice.

emotionalmachine
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When I freeze water it just seems to form a solid block, how can I go about making it so I can see crystals? Are there crystals in that block (do I need a microscope)?
 
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There are crystals, you just can't see them. The longer it takes for it to freeze, the larger the crystals will be.
 
If the crystalization is very slow you can see crystals forming (especially on the surface) in the form of needles.

Chemical calculators at
 
just look on your car windows in the winter time
 
What kind of microscope will I need?
 
To see crytsals on the window? None. To see crytsals forming in the water? None, they are large enough.

Where do you live? In smoe warmer place? Move north, you will see ice crystals on the windows every winter... Although they are slightly different from these forming in water, as they are in a way two dimensional - they are created in a very thin water film on the glass surface.
 
Freeze a very thin sheeet of water; you will see crystallites.
 
i think temperature change has a lot to do with the formation of visible crystals. in chem 2 lab we added a compound to water and heated it. then set the tubes in an ice bath (flask with ice (temp was like 0 degrees celsius)) and within seconds we saw ice crystals...very cool.
 
Here's an interesting question that fits into this thread. If I freeze water in my freezer, like in an ice cube rack, is the crystal structure completely random, somewhat organized, or truly crystalline in the sense of one overriding pattern?

I've never seen an ice cube break clean like other crystals, so I'm inclined to believe that an ice cube is a jumble of microscopic crystalline structures mish-mashed together to form one large coherent, but not truly crystalline, structure.

Is there more to it than that, and if so, what more is there?
 

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