Is it possible for "nothing" to exist

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of "nothing" and whether it is possible for "nothing" to exist. Participants explore various definitions of nothing, its implications in physics, and the relationship between nothingness and dimensions of space. The conversation touches on theoretical and conceptual aspects, including quantum mechanics and the nature of vacuums.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether dimensions of space would exist if there were "nothing" at all.
  • There is a call for a clear definition of "nothing," with some suggesting that Einstein's definition lacks contextual meaning.
  • Several participants propose that a total vacuum devoid of matter could exist, but achieving this in practice is uncertain.
  • It is noted that even a vacuum produces particles and has geometry and curvature, complicating the notion of "nothing."
  • Some argue that quantum mechanics forbids absolute nothingness, raising questions about the implications of uncertainty.
  • Participants discuss the existence of laws of physics and whether they can exist without entities like mass, energy, and fields.
  • There is a contention regarding whether electromagnetic fields can exist without charged objects, with differing views on the implications for the concept of nothing.
  • One participant suggests that defining "nothing" as a vacuum could lead to a different understanding of the original question.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of "nothing" or its implications. Multiple competing views remain, and the discussion is marked by uncertainty and differing interpretations of the concept.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the ambiguity of terms like "nothing" and "absolute nothing," which lack precise definitions. The discussion also reflects unresolved questions about the nature of vacuums and the existence of physical laws in the absence of entities.

KarminValso1724
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If there was nothing, would there still be dimensions of space and nothing in them or would there not be any dimensions of space at all.
 
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'Nothing', according to Einstein is the 'lack of any ponderable properties'. This definition obviously lacks any contextual meaning.
 
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You can in principle have a total vacuum devoid of all matter, although actually achieving that has not (I think) been done yet.
Such a vacuum could be contained within a container of a known size.
 
rootone said:
You can in principle have a total vacuum devoid of all matter, although actually achieving that has not (I think) been done yet.
Such a vacuum could be contained within a container of a known size.

I don't think this can be what the OP meant by "nothing", since it obviously has dimensions of space because of the container. (Also, the container is obviously not "nothing".) However, the best thing would be for the OP himself to clarify what he meant.
 
rootone said:
You can in principle have a total vacuum devoid of all matter, although actually achieving that has not (I think) been done yet.
Such a vacuum could be contained within a container of a known size.

Even a vacuum produces particles.
 
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Kevin McHugh said:
Even a vacuum produces particles.
and radiation can exist in a vacuum too, was really waiting for the OP to define 'nothing', but no atoms would be a place to start.
 
Kevin McHugh said:
Even a vacuum produces particles.
Vacuums also have geometry and curvature.
 
It seems to me that QM forbids absolute nothing, wouldn't that contradict uncertainty?
 
  • #10
windy miller said:
QM forbids absolute nothing

Define "absolute nothing". The root issue here (which the OP's question also illustrates) is that you are throwing around ordinary language terms that do not have precise definitions. Questions framed in that manner do not have precise, well-defined answers.
 
  • #11
PeterDonis said:
Define "absolute nothing".

Would one way of looking at this be to ask just what do we know that does exists? E.g. mass, energy, fields, and space time? Is there anything that we know to exist or theorise to exist that falls outside of those 4 generic categories?
 
  • #12
rede96 said:
Would one way of looking at this be to ask just what do we know that does exists? E.g. mass, energy, fields, and space time? Is there anything that we know to exist or theorise to exist that falls outside of those 4 generic categories?
The laws themselves that govern those entities.
 
  • #13
newjerseyrunner said:
The laws themselves that govern those entities.

True, but those laws are only there because those entities exist. No entities no laws.
 
  • #14
Leonard Susskind, in one of his video lectures, said that the electric & magnetic fields cannot both be zero at the same time in the same place according to the HUP. Fields are something.
 
  • #15
rede96 said:
Would one way of looking at this be to ask just what do we know that does exists?

Not really. Read the OP question again. Suppose we have a definitive answer to your question--say, for concreteness, that the list you give is in fact the definitive list of "things we know exist". How would that help in answering the OP's question?
 
  • #16
anorlunda said:
Fields are something.

Ok, so how does this help in answering the OP's question?
 
  • #17
PeterDonis said:
Ok, so how does this help in answering the OP's question?

KarminValso1724 said:
If there was nothing, would there still be dimensions of space and nothing in them or would there not be any dimensions of space at all.

It refutes the OP's premise, " if there was nothing." In the universe that physics deals with, there is always something.
 
  • #18
anorlunda said:
Leonard Susskind, in one of his video lectures, said that the electric & magnetic fields cannot both be zero at the same time in the same place according to the HUP. Fields are something.

I would imagine that because the electromagnetic forces are caused by electrically charged objects that if you remove all those object there is no field, so not sure if that would apply in that case.
 
  • #19
rede96 said:
I would imagine that because the electromagnetic forces are caused by electrically charged objects that if you remove all those object there is no field, so not sure if that would apply in that case.

Photons don't require charged objects to exist.
 
  • #20
anorlunda said:
It refutes the OP's premise, " if there was nothing."

That depends on how the OP defines "nothing". Which is what I asked him to clarify. (For example, I could define "nothing" as "vacuum", in which case it is certainly possible for there to be nothing, and there would still be dimensions of space if there were nothing.)
 
  • #21
anorlunda said:
It refutes the OP's premise, " if there was nothing." In the universe that physics deals with, there is always something.

Thanks for that, that's pretty much how I was thinking. If we take away everything that physics deals with what is left? The question would therefore be are there any laws of physics that prevent that?
 
  • #22
anorlunda said:
Photons don't require charged objects to exist.

Yes of course, probably a bad example but was just trying to restate that if we took everything we know about away, then those laws don't apply.
 
  • #23
This thread is degenerating into the kind of speculation that my original question to the OP in post #2 was supposed to forestall. Thread closed.
 

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