Is it possible to be both healthy and overweight?

[gjonesy]

I'd like to start off by saying everyone knows its better to have a good bmi then to be on the heavey side. But its a myth that a person can not be both heavy (considered obese) and not athletic. Examples UFC fighters Roy Nelson and big Ben Rothwell

 

[Drakkith]

If you mean that people can be both obese and athletic, of course they can. What's your point? Just because someone is athletic doesn't mean they are healthy, nor does being overweight, even obese, mean that someone will experience health issues because of it (though in almost all cases it does).

 

[DiracPool]

I'd like to start off by saying everyone knows its better to have a good bmi then to be on the heavey side. But its a myth that a person can not be both heavy (considered obese) and not athletic. Examples UFC fighters Roy Nelson and big Ben Rothwell

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Is there a question in there or are you just re-assuring us that obese individuals can jog a quarter mile and throw a few punches?

 

[gjonesy]

I posted it as a discussion topic, just to get a discussion going about the issue,... about a month ago I got into a conversation with an individual who's assertion was that someone who is obese is not athletic by definition. They also asserted that genetically speaking that skinner people were both more attractive and more intelligent and therefore more educated. I think the assumption is ludicrous but he insisted that there were studies to prove those assumptions. I 'd love to see these studies if in fact they exist at all. I probably should have phased the topic as a question.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

There are lot of athletes who would be considered overweight by BMI metrics.

All you have to do is watch a pro football game to know that.

But do you know what the average life span is for NFL players? I would not call that healthy.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

But do you know what the average life span is for NFL players? I would not call that healthy.

NFL players' lifespans are longer than the average Americans'

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/comparing-the-wwfs-death-rate-to-the-nfls-and-other-pro-leagues/

On the original topic, BMI can be a flawed measure of health, especially when applied to people with a lot of muscle mass. For the average person, it works ok, but it is by no means the only metric with which to judge one's health. It's probably better to use when analyzing trends in a population than when diagnosing individuals.

 

[gjonesy]

I would never say being in a serious state of obesity (morbid obesity) isn't a unhealthy situation, I would also not say that someone who endures constant abuse and sever injury no mater what there BMI is in a healthy environment. That is all common sense. HOWEVER when it come to cardio vascular health and stamina those that are considered "obese by health standards" BMI of (27-32) can be just as athletic and healthy as their leaner counter part. I myself have a BMI of 32 and can swim a half mile. I know leaner people that can't swim 100 yards. The other assumption that was made was that (fat= unattractive and unintelligent). Both assertions are totally inaccurate, in fact I know several people who are morbidly obese with PHD's. I know several women that are considered over weight and are quite beautiful. And I'd wager this person who equates and I quote being " obese is to be ugly, stupid and un educated" would definitely hook up with these particular ladies.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

But do you know what the average life span is for NFL players? I would not call that healthy.

Any of the skilled positions and the players are usually extremely in good condition.

Lineman and running backs (concussions) don't fair so well.

 

[gjonesy]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Is there a question in there or are you just re-assuring us that obese individuals can jog a quarter mile and throw a few punches?

Well in the case of Roy Nelson the more obese of the 2, according to fight commentator Joe Rogan said his work ethic and stamina were in his word " amazing" apparently he can run for 2 hours on a treadmill and continue weight training after. That's not good condition that is GREAT condition.

 

[gjonesy]

On the original topic, BMI can be a flawed measure of health, especially when applied to people with a lot of muscle mass. For the average person, it works ok, but it is by no means the only metric with which to judge one's health. It's probably better to use when analyzing trends in a population than when diagnosing individuals.

Other heath concerns are to be considered when talking about WWF and even body building. Steroid abuse causes several health problem particularly cardio vascular disease. These sports aren't regulated like other competitive sports specially wrestling. They are considered more of a sport entertainment venue. and the bigger you are the more money you can make.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Any of the skilled positions and the players are usually extremely in good condition.

Lineman and running backs (concussions) don't fair so well.

Is there data to support this?

Other heath concerns are to be considered when talking about WWF and even body building. Steroid abuse causes several health problem particularly cardio vascular disease. These sports aren't regulated like other competitive sports specially wrestling. They are considered more of a sport entertainment venue. and the bigger you are the more money you can make.

Yup. From the article where I grabbed the plot:

Though a bit surprising, there are good reasons why we might expect successful pro athletes to be better than average at surviving the 35- to 60-year-old period of their lives. They make http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct01/wealthhealth.aspx during their careers and have fairly good job prospects (relative to average) thereafter. They operate in a disciplined, highly regulated environment during a formative period of their lives and face extensive drug testing. Not to mention, these athletes are highly skilled and physically honed professionals. Their bodies may take a lot of damage that may stay with them for the rest of their lives, but it’s not the kind of damage that typically leads to an early grave.

Wrestling in the WWF era, on the other hand, is reputed to have had a party culture, extensive performance-enhancing and recreational drug use, training focused on more aesthetic than functional physical improvements, a brutal schedule, and fewer monetary rewards than fans might think.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/comparing-the-wwfs-death-rate-to-the-nfls-and-other-pro-leagues/

 

[gjonesy]

BTW here are the statements I took exception too ( I don't think one can be both athletic and obese. Do you?) (So regardless of your own opinion, the evidence shows that attractive, athletic people, including underwear models, have higher IQ and education than (excuse the bluntness) fat ugly people) (Being of normal weight is a requirement of underwear models - So evidence suggest they are more likely to be educated.)
(Clearly body weight is not the only requirement - Attractiveness is also required. Attractiveness has been linked to higher IQ (which of course is strongly linked to education level)

All of the above statements I consider not only offensive but complete nonsense.

In the words of Cpt. Jack Sparrow "utterly deceptive twaddle speak says I"

 

[jim mcnamara]

@gjonesy
Look. Science is not about politics or prevailing social values. Although politicans sometimes try to bend Science to their ideology - NOT part of this discussion. Diversity in human popluations is enormous. Healthy adults can range greatly in height. And weight. Simply because you are offended does not cut it. Can you please cite a scientific citation has the bolded content in your post ?

In my opinion you seem to be discussing SES.

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2013/obesity-socioeconomic-status.aspx -> this is meant for general consumption( i.e.,people who become ill at the first sight of an equation), actual citations at the bottom.

For example, this citation presents information about obesity and socioeconomic status (abbrev: SES) worldwide.

In first world countries obesity correlates negatively with SES - poor people are more obese than well off people. Which could be what you are talking about. I think we are all aware that SES may have a huge impact on all aspects of life.

In very poor countries those with high SES tend to be more obese.

So if you cannot cite something relavant from a decent source, please desist. It is great that you have a position you want to defend. Doing it the way you have so far will get the thread locked.

 

[gjonesy]

Healthy adults can range greatly in height. And weight. Simply because you are offended does not cut it. Can you please cite a scientific citation has the bolded content in your post ?

I didn't say the bolded content of that post, someone else did. And I think blanket statements of this nature are misleading and unwarranted. I just quoted them as they were written to show the stereotypical bias label placed on groups as a whole. And you are right that thread was locked before I could intelligently rebut those statements.

Its not a matter of being offended although these assumptions are decidedly offensive, not only that they are stereotypical and they were made as a blanket statement. And easily proven false. Although I highly doubt anyone can provide statistical data, in general that being pretty and thin, makes you intelligent and educated either. That's absurd, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence in main stream media and culture that suggest the exact opposite. All I am saying is the blanket statement as a whole reflects a bias and is needlessly inflammatory and most decidedly FALSE. And even though this is off topic by a slight hair, just because someone is poor, has no impact on their IQ either. IQ has nothing to do with education, your IQ is a assessment of your ability to learn. In many cases disadvantaged people do not have access to higher educational opportunities but are intelligent none the less. As do those born into privilege instead of poverty who can afford a good education and yet waste their potential because they don't have to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nations_and_intelligence

There are areas in china that are decidedly undeveloped and poor, as a country the average IQ is above 105.

 

[jim mcnamara]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient
The mean is 100. 105 is not significantly different from the mean. The Weschler IQ test standard deviation is 15. So "normal" is 85-115, one standard deviation.

I'm not here to discuss IQ tests. There are a huge number of negative and positive opinions about it. I'm sure it does not mean all that much statistically in the context you quoted.

Okie dokey - I have nothing else to say.

 

[gjonesy]

I will make this one blanket statement and I highly doubt any intelligent person will need studies or peer reviewed papers to know its a totally true statement,
Our population globally is diverse, color, body type, race, religion, national origin gender, and sexual preference or economic status aside. There are genius that exist, of all shapes sizes rich and poor. Athletes that are obese and relatively healthy compared to the populous. And very beautiful body types of all kinds. I actually find (curvy women) more attractive then their fitter counter parts but that's just a preference.

 

[dipole]

I would never say being in a serious state of obesity (morbid obesity) isn't a unhealthy situation, I would also not say that someone who endures constant abuse and sever injury no mater what there BMI is in a healthy environment. That is all common sense. HOWEVER when it come to cardio vascular health and stamina those that are considered "obese by health standards" BMI of (27-32) can be just as athletic and healthy as their leaner counter part. I myself have a BMI of 32 and can swim a half mile. I know leaner people that can't swim 100 yards. The other assumption that was made was that (fat= unattractive and unintelligent). Both assertions are totally inaccurate, in fact I know several people who are morbidly obese with PHD's. I know several women that are considered over weight and are quite beautiful. And I'd wager this person who equates and I quote being " obese is to be ugly, stupid and un educated" would definitely hook up with these particular ladies.

Yes, well fat is more buoyant than lean muscle, which may give you a slight advantage over someone who is normal weight and never trains for swimming. However, all that extra mass and resistance will make you a poor swimmer compared to people who do train for swimming. Have you ever seen a competitive swimmer who isn't fit? I doubt it.

There are some sports were body weight is an advantage - line men in football, weightlifting/powerlifting/strongman competitors, some types of wresting/contact sports... but just because being heavy helps you in those sports doesn't make it "healthy".

 

[gjonesy]

Have you ever seen a competitive swimmer who isn't fit? I doubt it.

Actually I have, the name of the young lady escapes me but she was a competitive long distance swimer who swam the width of one of the great lakes.

So yeah I have actually. Lol

Edit: her name is Lynne Cox
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/Lynne-Cox/lynne-cox-story

 

[gjonesy]

AND just for the purpose of clarification, am not trying to advocate for an unhealthy lifestyle and say that some over weight people are MORE healthy. Just dispelling a a prejudice that isn't completely founded and based in fact. This isn't an argument against fit lean people either. Just against stereo types, and it isn't me being politically correct or really defending a position. The point being not (all over weight people are unhealthy unintelligent or uneducated) These labels are just not factual. Everyone is different.

 

[dipole]

Well there is enormous statistical and medical data that suggest being overweight is associated with higher risks for all kinds of diseases, and overall a lower life expectancy and higher mortality rate.

Believe what you choose though...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well there is enormous statistical and medical data that suggest being overweight is associated with higher risks for all kinds of diseases, and overall a lower life expectancy and higher mortality rate.

But, being overweight is associated with being sedentary:

People who don't get regular physical activity are more likely to gain excess weight. One study showed that an hour of walking daily cut the risk of obesity by 24%.

http://www.nchpad.org/403/2216/Sedentary~Lifestyle~is~Dangerous~to~Your~Health
The real culprit when overweight people are unhealthy may well be the fact they are sedentary, which is usually the case. It's not healthy to be lean and sedentary either, but that's more rare. Overweight people who are never-the-less very active may well not be as unhealthy as you'd assume (though active overweight people are rare in my experience).

 

[gjonesy]

Overweight people who are never-the-less very active may well not be as unhealthy as you'd assume (though active overweight people are rare in my experience).

Thank you , my point exactly.

 

[russ_watters]

Life expectancy and morbidity are all about accumulated probabilities/risks. Is it possible to be an obese smoker stuntman who eats raw hamburger and scotch for every meal and live to 100? Sure, but the accumulated risk factors make it unlikely.

 

[gjonesy]

Well there is enormous statistical and medical data that suggest being overweight is associated with higher risks for all kinds of diseases, and overall a lower life expectancy and higher mortality rate.

Believe what you choose though..

How bout I just believe the science, I'm considered Gade 1 OBESE. but I'm right on the edge of over weight.

Conclusions and Relevance Relative to normal weight, both obesity (all grades) and grades 2 and 3 obesity were associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality. Grade 1 obesity overall was not associated with higher mortality, and overweight was associated with significantly lower all-cause mortality. The use of predefined standard BMI groupings can facilitate between-study comparisons.

 

[jack476]

First of all, understand that BMI is meant to be used at the population level. At the individual level it's not very revealing. People who are especially tall, or who are unusually muscular, will register as overweight or obese on the BMI scale.

But in practice, being obese is rather like smoking or having a drinking habit. Sure, some people will smoke and drink every day and live into their 80s or 90s without any health issues. There's always going to be a few outliers. But in practice, it rarely happens that way, and there's no way to deterministically predict exactly what effect a bad health habit will have on you. Overwhelmingly, your chances of being healthy are higher if you quit smoking and drinking. Likewise with obesity. Some obese people will be quite healthy. But more importantly, they would in all likelihood be healthier if they were not obese, and the fact remains that if you have the choice between being obese and being of normal weight, if you are concerned with your health you should choose the latter.

What the original proponents of Health at Every Size were trying to argue is absolutely not that it's healthy to be obese, but that the typical approach to weight control, is misguided because it revolves around losing weight rather than making positive lifestyle changes. HAES does not mean "You are healthy no matter how much you weigh", it means "People of anybody type can choose to engage in healthier lifestyle habits." Obesity, according to HAES, is the product of lifestyle, and the only thing that can eliminate it is a permanent lifestyle change, ergo diets do not work because they are often temporary, and overweight people tend to focus more on losing weight rather than improving health.

How bout I just believe the science, I'm considered Gade 1 OBESE. but I'm right on the edge of over weight.

Conclusions and Relevance Relative to normal weight, both obesity (all grades) and grades 2 and 3 obesity were associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality. Grade 1 obesity overall was not associated with higher mortality, and overweight was associated with significantly lower all-cause mortality. The use of predefined standard BMI groupings can facilitate between-study comparisons.

Being overweight does not cause health problems in and of itself, the things that make a person overweight (restricted food choices, sedentary lifestyle, or untreated mental or hormonal issues) cause health problems. Being only slightly obese may not predispose you towards major diseases, but overall, you would likely be healthier if you resolved the underlying problems that led to that obesity.

As for being overweight associated with lower mortality, I'm going to need to see a source for that.

 

[billy_joule]

Although I highly doubt anyone can provide statistical data, in general that being pretty and thin, makes you intelligent and educated either. That's absurd, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence in main stream media and culture that suggest the exact opposite.

You have made this claim in another thread in the past and I provided evidence then too. Physics forum does not accept "anecdotal evidence in main stream media and culture" so unless you have evidence to support your claim please stop spreading misinformation.

Education and obesity are negatively correlated:
http://www.oecd.org/eco/growth/relationship education and obesity.pdf
"those with more years of schooling are less likely to smoke, drink a lot, to be overweight or obese or to use illegal drugs. Similarly, the better educated are more likely to exercise and to obtain preventive care such as flu shots, vaccines, mammograms, pap smears and colonoscopies."Intelligence and attractiveness are positively correlated:
http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/i2011.pdf
The proposed mechanism seems intuitive to me :
“If females generally prefer intelligent males because they typically have higher incomes and status, and if most males prefer physically attractive females, then over time these two characteristics will tend to covary.”

 

[gjonesy]

How about actual examples? Sure they aren't peer reviewed but let's let actual achievement stand as evidence . Anyone who will to make blankets statement of this magnitude and use 2 studies to back it up must have examples right?

These celebrities are generally considered attractive and successful and they NEVER finished high school they were discovered and attained their positions and status from simply being attractive.

http://magazine.foxnews.com/celebrity/20-celebrities-who-never-finished-high-schoolObese record setting athlete
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/Lynne-Cox/lynne-cox-story

athlete
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Nelson_(fighter)Obese physicist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson

Unattractive physicist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking

Obese female physicist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Goel

Decidedly unattractive physicist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie

This statement you made was very specific and completely absurd.

Where is your study and "the evidence that suggest being of normal weight" that underwear models are more educated ? (Being of normal weight is a requirement of underwear models - So evidence suggest they are more likely to be educated.)

For every study you cite I can provide actual examples of the exact opposite of what you propose. Therefore any limited study on a certain populous is likely to be bias and totally irrelevant...I rest my case.

Edit and excerpt from your own source http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/i2011.pdf"However, to the best of my knowledge, the correlation between intelligence and physical attractiveness has never been quantitatively established in a large, nationally representative sample."The study itself suggest it may be bias. Even if being more attractive means you are more likely to be intelligent ... It doesn't necessarily mean you are EDUCATED, there are plenty of attractive fit poor people who simply can not afford to go to school. And Indeed if they are exceptionally attractive they may not need to, Sales, acting, and modeling jobs do not require much education at all.

 

[gjonesy]

Being only slightly obese may not predispose you towards major diseases, but overall, you would likely be healthier if you resolved the underlying problems that led to that obesity.

Maybe you guys misunderstand my reasoning for starting the discussion in the first place, that is to say, this is more about the prejudice faced by certain groups. I will never argue the virtues of obesity or advocate a lifestyle that leads to it, of course having a BMI of (18-22) is healthier and it would put myself in "normal" range and I would indeed be better off. My main concern its the negative, and virtually unfounded stereotype that in my opinion is in an of itself misleading and misinformation. There are exceptions to these rules and studies of this nature are bias, these exceptions are by a pretty wide margin. That fact is there haven't been any studies of subgroups let's say of obese unattractive college students with High GPA's compared to attractive fit College students with High GPA's. There are no studies that I can find that compare athletes with BMI index that puts them in the over weigh category comparatively to athletes who have a normal to low BMI index. These studies don't exist I think. Studies on poor fit attractive people without access to education, IN FACT there are people with mental disabilities "autism" that would score unusually high on some IQ test. example Daniel Tammet who is mildly autistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet

 

[gjonesy]

As for being overweight associated with lower mortality, I'm going to need to see a source for that.

I will try to find that study later this afternoon and I'll post a link.

addendum: here is the link.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=1555137

 

[russ_watters]

How about actual examples? Sure they aren't peer reviewed but let's let actual achievement stand as evidence .

No, that is not acceptable. That is not how science works.

Maybe you guys misunderstand my reasoning for starting the discussion in the first place, that is to say, this is more about the prejudice faced by certain groups.

What I'm seeing based on post #24 is that you've been labeled "obese", by a doctor or general standard and for self esteem reasons are trying to argue your way out of it with anecdotal evidence. It is unscientific/wrong: get your medical advice from your doctor. Not only will s/he measure your BMI, but they will also measure the more specific associated risk factors and already manifested damage (blood pressure, heart rate, cholesterol, arthritis/joint issues, etc.).

I've heard/read elsewhere that doctors used to be more guarded with their labels, but are now taking the gloves off because not telling it like it is makes the problem worse. That hurts your feelings? Get over it. His job is to make/keep you healthy, not butter you up.

Thread locked. Inappropriate content/discussion.