High School Is it that hard to do Relativity in accelerating frames?

Click For Summary
The discussion revolves around the complexities of applying relativity in accelerating frames compared to inertial frames. It highlights that while Lorentz transformations apply in flat spacetime, transitioning to accelerating frames complicates the equations, akin to using curvilinear coordinates in calculus. The feasibility of adjusting an accelerating frame to become unaccelerated is debated, with the consensus that in flat spacetime, a global inertial frame can always be found, while in curved spacetime, this is not always possible. The conversation also touches on the importance of defining what constitutes a "frame" in relativity, emphasizing the role of geodesics and parallel transport in establishing non-accelerating frames. Ultimately, the discussion underscores the intricate relationship between acceleration, frame selection, and the mathematical framework of relativity.
  • #31
robphy said:
One aspect that [to me] isn't so clear, however, is making and interpreting measurements by an accelerating observer (e.g. Piecewise inertial, uniformly accelerating, piecewise uniformly accelerating, rotating, arbitrary, etc) ... they don't just carry over from the inertial case. For example, as I currently understand it, radar measurements yield different results from those associated with clocks and "rods" (somehow defined).
Correct.

Rods are typically assumed to be 'born rigid objects'. In this, case, for a world line defining a time axis for an accelerated frame, and assumed not to be rotating, it turns out the Fermi-Normal coordinates match measurements made with born rigid rulers (with one end following the axial world line). If rotation is allowed, there is no possible definition of rigid rods per Herglotz-Noether. A generalization of Fermi-Normal coordinates are still possible for world tube around an arbitrary world line with arbitrary (changing) rotation allowed, but the 'tube' may be small and cover a limited region of proper time before you have to go to another patch to avoid violations of one to one mapping. However, to me, it is altogether unclear what the physical meaning of these coordinates is for the rotating case, given that there is no physically motivated definition of rods available.

Radar simultaneity agrees with Born rigid simultaneity for eternal inertial motion and eternal uniformly accelerated motion. They disagree for any more general motion. For eternal uniform acceleration, even though simultaneity agrees, if you define distance for radar based coordinates based on light travel time, you get different results than for Fermi-Normal coordinates (which are just a translation of the origin of Rindler coordinates). However, if you combine radar simultaneity with proper distance along simultaneity surfaces, you recover Fermi-Normal coordinates for the eternal uniform acceleration case.

[edit: I guess I should clarify 'born rigid simultaneity'. Normally, born rigidity is a statement about a timelike congruence based on the expansion tensor. However, if a congruence is born rigid, it has a unique hypersurface orthogonal foliation. It is this that I am calling born rigid simultaneity.]
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
PAllen said:
Correct.

Rods are typically assumed to be 'born rigid objects'. In this, case, for a world line defining a time axis for an accelerated frame, and assumed not to be rotating, it turns out the Fermi-Normal coordinates match measurements made with born rigid rulers (with one end following the axial world line). If rotation is allowed, there is no possible definition of rigid rods per Herglotz-Noether.

If one introduces the "relative space" of Rizzi and Ruggerio, https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0207104, one can gain some insight into the physical experience of space on a rotating disk. The approach differs in who it handles time - instead of trying to define a rigid motion in space-time, one focuses on a different way to separate "space" from "time" in space-time.

This approach is also called by some authors a "quotient manifold", it's the sort of space one gets by eliminating the time dimension in a specific way. One does this by mapping entire lines in space-time to a single point in the abstract space. This is done routinely to separate space from time - any map from space-time to space must map a 4d manifold to a 3d manifold, so it must map lines in the 4d space-time to points in the 3d space. In the R&R approach, rather than focus on creating surfaces of simultaneity which is the usual approach (and one that causes problems on the rotating disk), one instead keeps things simple by mapping the worldlines of particles "at rest" on a rotating disk to single points in the abstract space, the "relative space" of R&R.

The result of this process is a static spatial geometry (assuming the space-time geometry is that of a disk rotating with constant angular velocity, i.e. a stationary rotating space-time), , with a well defined notion of distances between points given by a static spatial metric that corresponds physically to the SI definition of the meter.

SI meter: The meter is the length of the path traveled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.

There aren't any special difficulties that I'm aware of in using an older defintion of the meter rod rather than the modern SI definitoin, except for accuracy issues. Both techniques are suitable for measuring the distance between sufficiently nearby points, though the light-defined meters will both be more accurate, and less easily deformed by inertial pseudo-forces than physical meter bars. Both, though, should reach the same limiting concept of idstance over a sufficiently short interval.
We study the space geometry of a rotating disk both from a theoretical and operational approach, in particular we give a precise definition of the space of the disk, which is not clearly defined in the literature. To this end we define an extended 3-space, which we call relative space: it is recognized as the only space having an actual physical meaning from an operational point of view, and it is identified as the 'physical space of the rotating platform'. Then, the geometry of the space of the disk turns out to be non Euclidean, according to the early Einstein's intuition

I make out the "operational" point of view of R&R to simply say that they are using the current SI defintion of the meter, as I mentioned.

I think perhaps the biggest difficulty with this is the notion of accepting that it is sufficient to define the distance between all nearby points in a "space" via some sort of metric. People want to leap ahead into defining distance over longer intervals.

There are several logical ways to proceed, the problem is that authors may use different approaches, which are different enough to give different answers, so there isn't any short way to talk about large-enough distances. The underlying difficulty in most cases is how to handle the problem of simultaneity, along with the approach of how to convert space-time into space+time.

R&R eliminates time right away, the manner in which they do so leads to a certain definition of distance. Fermi-normal coordinates take a different approach, in which one defines surfaces of simultaneity by space-like geodesic radiating from some specific observer. They work well in the vicinity of the observer, but may not work so well globally - they may not respect global symmetries. Cosmologists often base their notion of distance on taking surfaces of constant time - which is probably the most popular approach for non-rotating coordinate systems. But this approach has difficulties in dealing with rotating frames of reference.
 
  • #33
@pervect : Interesting info, but also worth noting is that for strictly uniform rotation composed with strictly inertial motion, Herglotz-Noether allows born rigid motion, so extended Fermi-Normal coordinates give rigid rod measurements for this case. In a more general case, you cannot plausibly get a static spatial metric, so it is not so clear how much this adds to the extended Fermi-Normal approach.

The extended Fermi-Normal approach is covered in e.g. MTW as "proper reference frame of an accelerated observer" in section 13.6.
 
  • #34
robphy said:
One aspect that [to me] isn't so clear, however, is making and interpreting measurements by an accelerating observer (e.g. Piecewise inertial, uniformly accelerating, piecewise uniformly accelerating, rotating, arbitrary, etc) ... they don't just carry over from the inertial case.
There is no need to do such things. Every system of coordinates is sufficient to describe all the physics, and for all observers. One system may be, for some reasons, easier than others, but every system of coordinates is sufficient for everything. No need to have different systems of coordinates if you have different observers - one is sufficient for them all. And it does not even have to be the inertial one for any of them.

So, in particular, there is no need at all to care about any special coordinates for accelerated observers.
 

Similar threads

Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
7K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K