Is Λa_b the Same as Λba in Tensor Notation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the notation of tensors in General Relativity (GR), specifically whether the tensor components Λa_b and Λb_a are equivalent and the implications of index placement on their interpretation. The scope includes theoretical aspects of tensor notation and its application in GR.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the order of index placement in tensor notation, questioning if Λa_b is the same as Λb_a.
  • Another participant clarifies that strictly speaking, Λa_b and Λb_a are not the same due to the different roles of the indices in the tensor's operation.
  • A further explanation notes that the order of indices matters because Λa_b takes a vector in the first slot and a covector in the second, while Λb_a does the opposite.
  • It is mentioned that in a manifold with a metric, one can convert between vectors and covectors, which may allow for equivalence in certain cases, but this depends on the specific inputs used.
  • One participant raises a concern about the clarity of vertical index alignment, suggesting it could lead to ambiguity regarding the order of slots.
  • Another participant agrees and adds that while some sources may be inconsistent, symmetric tensors allow for index exchange without affecting the output.
  • A later reply introduces the concept of anti-symmetric tensors, noting that for such tensors, T_{ab} = -T_{ba}, which adds another layer of complexity to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the order of indices is significant in tensor notation, but there is no consensus on the implications of vertical alignment of indices or the treatment of symmetric versus anti-symmetric tensors.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the tensors and the context in which they are applied, particularly concerning the metric's role in converting between vectors and covectors.

dyn
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Index notation in GR is really confusing ! I'm confused about many things but one thing is the order of index placement , ie. is Λa b the same as Λba ? And if not what is the difference ? Thanks
If anyone knows of any books or lecture notes that explain index gymnastics step by step that would be great.
 
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dyn said:
is Λab the same as Λba ?

Strictly speaking, no. See below.

dyn said:
if not what is the difference ?

The best simple explanation of how a tensor works that I've seen is in Misner, Thorne, & Wheeler, the classic GR textbook. Basically, a tensor is a linear machine with some number of slots, that takes geometric objects as input into the slots and outputs numbers; each slot corresponds to an index. If the index is an upper index, the slot takes a vector as input; if the index is a lower index, the slot takes a covector (or 1-form) as input. The order of the slots matters, so Λab, which takes a vector in the first slot and a 1-form in the second, is not the same as Λba, which takes a 1-form in the first slot and a vector in the second.

In a manifold with metric (which is all we work with in GR), you can always use the metric to convert vectors to 1-forms or vice versa. So you could take a vector and a 1-form that you inserted into the slots of Λab, and insert them into the slots of Λba, by converting the vector to a 1-form (so it will go in the first slot of Λba) and the 1-form to a vector (so it will go in the second slot of Λba). If these two operations both give the same number as output, then the two tensors Λab and Λba can be considered "the same"; in this case, we say the second is just the first with one index lowered and one index raised, using the metric.
 
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Thanks for your answer. Does that mean indices should never be directly in a vertical line as in that case we wouldn't know the order of the "slots" ?
 
dyn said:
Does that mean indices should never be directly in a vertical line as in that case we wouldn't know the order of the "slots" ?

Yes, although some sources are sloppy about this, probably because in some cases it doesn't actually matter. For example, if a two-index tensor is symmetric, its indexes can be exchanged (i.e., slots swapped) without changing its output. Many key tensors that appear in GR are symmetric (e.g., the metric and the stress-energy tensor).
 
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dyn said:
Thanks for your answer. Does that mean indices should never be directly in a vertical line as in that case we wouldn't know the order of the "slots" ?
Just to add (pedantically) that some tensors are anti-symmetric so ##T_{ab}=-T_{ba}##.
 

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