Is Life Possible Without a Creator?

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
If intention acts on it, then the intention itself must be physical, mustn't(sp?) it? If it is physical, than it too is indeterminate.

Everything is part of the same System, thus different "configurations" of the SAME STUFF. E = MC2 (I was scooped!)

SO, the Universe is ALL ENERGY ALL THE TIME...IMO...interracting with itself, and, as energy does, it just keeps movin'!

Say more about "indeterminate" ...and I'll tell you why it doesn't matter.

Hahahahaha. This is usually a creationist's argument...

There is no "prevailing order". If there were, there would be no supernovae, which produce Black Holes, which destroy everything in their path... Most importanly, there would be no humans, who, because of their consciousness/sentience/intelligence, are capable of destroying everything they find, including themselves.

So you don't think it's messy that every single part of the Universe can disappear, and reappear somewhere else, thus (according to Chaos theory) stopping a HUGE range of phenomena from "going about there business as usual"? You don't find it messy that stars collide, and galaxies are destroyed (galaxies which could contain intelligent life)? Alrighty...WHERE is this order that you keep talking about?

Surely you're playing Devil's Advocate, here, Mentat (), 'cause you couldn't possibly BELIEVE what you have written:

You seem to be saying that "destruction" precludes a natural tendency toward order. Not at all. It's all part of a PROCESS where systems fall apart and come together (as "new" systems) via natural forces. Now, if they only "fell apart" and then nothing "came together" ...then you might have something there...but then you wouldn't BE "there" because the cells that are constantly dying in your body would not be being replaced.

See you then .

My entropy coach is taking a break. . .(or did I break him?).

Oooo-taaay.

...can you see...?

Breath in, breath out...

My point exactly.

And I'm telling you you are boardering on ignoring what I'm saying. If the particles are indeterminate in themselves then no conscious being could possibly "order" them.

To what "conscious being" do you refer? I'm saying that it's the natural order of the System to disassemble and reassemble Its parts. And I say this is an eternal call to ORDER.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Everything is part of the same System, thus different "configurations" of the SAME STUFF. E = MC2 (I was scooped!)

Yes I know this, what does that have to do with price of eggs?

SO, the Universe is ALL ENERGY ALL THE TIME...IMO...interracting with itself, and, as energy does, it just keeps movin'!

Sure, that's pefectly sound reasoning. I still don't see how it helps your case at all, since energy interacting with other energy never shows any hint of conscious control.

Say more about "indeterminate" ...and I'll tell you why it doesn't matter.

I've been telling you that the signal (and that's what it must be, otherwise, how would a certain part of the Universe "know" what the Universe wanted) itself must also be indeterminate, since it is physical, and all physical things are indeterminate.

On top of this, the signal would have to travel at the speed of light (at most), and it would thus take many lightyears to reach certain parts of the Universe (of course, this raises the question of where the "center of consciousness" is in the Universe. I don't mean an actual "center" but rather a center like that of the center of consciousness for humans (the brain)).

Surely you're playing Devil's Advocate, here, Mentat (), 'cause you couldn't possibly BELIEVE what you have written:

I don't believe or disbelieve anything I write.

You seem to be saying that "destruction" precludes a natural tendency toward order. Not at all. It's all part of a PROCESS where systems fall apart and come together (as "new" systems) via natural forces. Now, if they only "fell apart" and then nothing "came together" ...then you might have something there...but then you wouldn't BE "there" because the cells that are constantly dying in your body would not be being replaced.

You are still missing my point, so I will follow your analogy (of cells) to it's actual conclusion: Cells need energy to replicate. They must take that energy from that part of their environment which they break down (that's why we eat food). In doing so, they increase the entropy of the whole system, while maintaining their own "person" order.

This is all precisely what I've been telling you about the formation of Solar Systems, planets, galaxies, etc.

My entropy coach is taking a break. . .(or did I break him?).

This also sounds like a bluff, but I won't bet my whole pot just yet....

...can you see...?

No compredo.

My point exactly.

How so?

To what "conscious being" do you refer? I'm saying that it's the natural order of the System to disassemble and reassemble Its parts. And I say this is an eternal call to ORDER.

And yet, in this "disassembling-and-reassembling" process, the entropy manages to increase...hmmmmm.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Sure, that's pefectly sound reasoning. I still don't see how it helps your case at all, since energy interacting with other energy never shows any hint of conscious control.

And maybe you and your brainy brethren can't TAKE a hint!

Later.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
And maybe you and your brainy brethren can't TAKE a hint!

Later.

okay, let's calm down and look at this realistically, M. Gaspar. mentat's point is a good one. where do you feel that science has failed in this respect?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
And maybe you and your brainy brethren can't TAKE a hint!

Later.

I think the real question is, have you seen such a hint as you're alluding to? If so, I'd like you to point it out for me, as it seems to have been entirely wasted on my teeny brain .

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by maximus
okay, let's calm down and look at this realistically, M. Gaspar. mentat's point is a good one. where do you feel that science has failed in this respect?

I thank you for your support, maximus...it was gettin' a little lonely on my side of the argument .

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Yes I know this, what does that have to do with price of eggs?

Scroll back and see that you keep trying to make a distinction between that which is "physical" and that which is not. My point is that even something which we/you may deem as "non-physical" -- like consciousness or spirit -- may, in fact, be the "same stuff" and, hence, able to interract and EFFECT physical systems.

More later.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Scroll back and see that you keep trying to make a distinction between that which is "physical" and that which is not. My point is that even something which we/you may deem as "non-physical" -- like consciousness or spirit -- may, in fact, be the "same stuff" and, hence, able to interract and EFFECT physical systems.

More later.

Ah, I see. Well, E=mc², or any other argument relating energy to matter, isn't going to help you because energy is physical...ain't I a stinka'?

 

[Ejderha]

Originally posted by Saint
IF there is no GOD/creator,
then how to explain the existence of life and this universe?

Can you explain scientifically and logically , how things/lives can exist independent of GOD.

Hello Saint!

From my eyes, after all this, till now and then, everything; anything we can imagine...

I would ask, What IF there is a god?

Ejderha

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by maximus
Okay, let's calm down and look at this realistically, M. Gaspar. Mentat's point is a good one. Where do you feel that science has failed in this respect?

Science has NOT failed. It's just not there yet.

The hints of consciousness within the Universe might be "hidden in plane sight" within Chaos Theory.

Now, I want you to look up at the high wire...that is ME tippy-toeing onto the thread ...but not this one.

I will be performing my act in Ring #3 ...better known as Royce's thread "Reasoning for the Existence of God as the Creator".

I will be performing without a net ...except for the one that some among you may be chasing me with.

But before I leave this thread, let me say to you, honorable Maximus: that I am perfectly calm and enjoying the good banter.

Not knowing me better, I can see how one might think my response to Mentat's admonition that "energy interacting with other energy never shows any hint of conscious control" seemed aggitated. But the fact is, I can't resist a straight line -- you know, as in a J K E -- thus was compelled to reply that maybe he and his "brainy brethren can't TAKE a hint!"

It's all part of my "fancy footwork" designed to distract from my occasional lack of content. Now that's another joke, 'cause I'm LOADED with CONTENT ...which I'll be carrying across the wire on Royce's thread.

See you there?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
I think the real question is, have you seen such a hint as you're alluding to? If so, I'd like you to point it out for me, as it seems to have been entirely wasted on my teeny brain .

Pearls before swine.

...in Ring #3.

 

[rocket art]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
PLEASE favor us with a new thread re consciousness.

And, if interested, you could visit "A Conscious Universe?" thread if it's still on the menu to see if any cross-pollination might occur.

Sorry for the rude outburst ...but I was at the edge of my seat in anticipation.

Hi again.

Well oki, I might post it on thread. I just found it on my files.

Actually I was out of town days before and had to chase time ( or flying with it).

I hope you folks also share your views and keep it going, it could be interesting seeing the concept from varying angles.