Is momentum conserved as a body falls through a gravitational field?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of momentum as a body falls through a gravitational field, exploring both Newtonian mechanics and General Relativity (GR). Participants examine the implications of momentum conservation during the motion of objects, such as a rock thrown upwards or a comet moving in a gravitational field, and how these concepts differ between the two frameworks.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that in Newtonian mechanics, momentum is not conserved for the object alone but for the system of the object and the Earth, as the Earth moves slightly in response to the object's motion.
  • Others clarify that momentum and energy are distinct and cannot be converted into one another, emphasizing that potential energy can convert to kinetic energy but not to momentum.
  • It is noted that in GR, objects following geodesics do not experience proper acceleration, which is a different interpretation compared to Newtonian mechanics.
  • Some participants question whether momentum is conserved in GR, noting that momentum is frame-dependent and that there is no invariant quantity interpreted as momentum in this scenario.
  • A later reply suggests that understanding GR through Newtonian terminology may not lead to a clear understanding of GR concepts.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about whether the momentum of an object, such as a comet, changes relative to an observer on Earth, indicating a need for clarity on the interpretation of acceleration along a geodesic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether momentum is conserved in the context of GR, with multiple competing views remaining about the interpretation of momentum and acceleration in both Newtonian and relativistic frameworks.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of momentum and energy, as well as the assumptions made about frames of reference and the treatment of gravitational effects in both Newtonian and GR contexts.

  • #31
cianfa72 said:
there is not any observable physical difference.
Then you should reconsider your apparent belief that there is any difference. In other words, you aren't describing two different ways the world could be. You are just describing the same physical configuration using two different strings of words.

cianfa72 said:
The difference is, I believe, that if the field (i.e. gravitational field/spacetime geometry in case at hand) can be conceived as a system's constituent then we may assign it physical properties (such as energy, momentum etc..) otherwise may not.
Why would you think that? How can we magically give anything physical properties by drawing a "system" boundary around it and saying it's "part of the system" instead of not.

In other words, since you agree that "part of the system" vs. "not part of the system" makes no physical difference, that is telling you that "part of the system" is a human convention, not physics. It's no different from assigning a coordinate chart. You can't change physics by changing coordinate charts. Similarly, you can't change physics by changing how you draw the boundaries of "the system".
 
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  • #32
Ibix said:
Or you can (more realistically) say it's subject to a force external to the system we are considering. For example we could hold the Earth in place with a sufficiently powerful rocket.
The "more realistically" juxtaposed with the Earth example is very entertaining. :wink:
 
  • #33
PeterDonis said:
How can we magically give anything physical properties by drawing a "system" boundary around it and saying it's "part of the system" instead of not.
Of course that's true. I was reasoning along the lines of Feynman in lecture 10-5.

He claims that in order to check out the law of conservation of momentum for electric charges, it makes sense to assign a momentum to the electromagnetic field. Hence the system he actually considers is "charges + field" assigning a physical property (momentum) to the field itself.
 
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  • #34
cianfa72 said:
He claims that in order to check out the law of conservation of momentum for electric charges, it makes sense to assign a momentum to the electromagnetic field.
Yes. But what he describes does not work for gravity.
 
  • #35
PeterDonis said:
Yes. But what he describes does not work for gravity.
Why not ? Could you be more specific ?
 
  • #36
cianfa72 said:
Why not ? Could you be more specific ?
Because the energy and momentum "stored in a gravitational field" cannot be localized the way energy and momentum stored in an EM field can be. In more technical language, there is no stress-energy tensor for the "gravitational field" in GR, the way there is for the EM field.
 
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