A Is MWI Considered Local in Quantum Mechanics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DrChinese
  • Start date Start date
  • #31
DrChinese said:
I didn't say b) and c) are proven. I just said that if those criteria were demonstrated, then MWI (or any interpretation for that matter) would be nonlocal.
MWI doesn't even contain anything like what is described in b) or c), so those items are simply irrelevant if we're talking about evaluating the MWI. Other interpretations (for example, I mentioned Bohmian in that earlier post) might contains things like that, but the MWI doesn't.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
PeterDonis said:
How is 3-dimensional space fundamental rather than emergent in other interpretations?
I'm talking about the non-relativistic theory. For example in the "standard" interpretation, the fundamental things are measurement outcomes, which happen in 3-space (not in Hilbert space or 3N-space of N particles).
 
  • #33
Demystifier said:
I'm talking about the non-relativistic theory.
Yes, to be clear, I wasn't asking about 3-dimensional space vs. 4-dimensional spacetime. I was asking about 3-dimensional space (or 4-dimensional spacetime in the relativistic theory) vs. Hilbert space.
 
  • #34
PeterDonis said:
MWI doesn't even contain anything like what is described in b) or c), so those items are simply irrelevant if we're talking about evaluating the MWI. Other interpretations (for example, I mentioned Bohmian in that earlier post) might contains things like that, but the MWI doesn't.
*You* were the one who asked for an expanded version of what locality is, which can also be answered by describing what nonlocality is. So I answer that as completely as I thought reasonable, and I did not claim these do or don't apply to MWI. I seek that answer.

Regardless, I certainly don't agree that b) and/or c) might not be an issue for MWI. That's what I am trying to find out. MWI proponents argue there is no nonlocal element to the interpretation, and I say one or more of criteria a-e are actually present. I can't find out which because most expositions on MWI simply hand-wave away Bell. From https://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm#faq

"Q32
Does the EPR experiment prohibit locality?
What about Bell's Inequality?

[Long calculation attempting to explain why there are perfect EPR correlations, but nothing explaining even the most basic elements of Bell. Read it yourself, but it basically skips the key objections to theories claiming to be local realistic - or, as is stated in the next paragraph, local deterministic.-DrC]

To recap. Many-worlds is local and deterministic. Local measurements split local systems (including observers) in a subjectively random fashion; distant systems are only split when the causally transmitted effects of the local interactions reach them. We have not assumed any non-local FTL effects, yet we have reproduced the standard predictions of QM.

So where did Bell and Eberhard go wrong? They thought that all theories that reproduced the standard predictions must be non-local. It has been pointed out by both Albert [A] and Cramer [C] (who both support different interpretations of QM) that Bell and Eberhard had implicity assumed that every possible measurement - even if not performed - would have yielded a single definite result. This assumption is called contra-factual definiteness or CFD.

What Bell and Eberhard really proved was that every quantum theory must either violate locality or CFD. Many-worlds with its multiplicity of results in different worlds violates CFD, of course, and thus can be local.

Thus many-worlds is the only local quantum theory in accord with the standard predictions of QM and, so far, with experiment
."

Pure gibberish. Obviously, the smoking gun here is that a nonlocal context - the measurement choices of Alice and distant Bob - are the only things needed to calculate the quantum prediction. That is true even when the photons being measured have no common past, and it is true when the measurement settings of Alice and Bob are changed midflight in a fashion in which no information about Alice's setting can reach Bob (and vice versa).

So no, I don't rule out b) and c) at all.
 
  • Informative
Likes Lord Jestocost
  • #35
DrChinese said:
I certainly don't agree that b) and/or c) might not be an issue for MWI.
They're "not an issue" only because the MWI does not contain anything corresponding to what they describe. There are no "mutual influences" or "remote changes" in the MWI. That's because there aren't any in the wave function, and in the MWI, the wave function is all there is.

None of this means the MWI does not have to account for the experimental results. Of course it does, just as any QM interpretation does. It just doesn't do it by appealing to "mutual influences" or "remote changes". It does it by, first, saying that the wave function is all there is; second, saying that there is no collapse, so all of the possibilities contained in the wave function actually exist (meaning that measurements don't have single results--all possible results happen); and third, saying that the wave function is what enforces the correlations such as are observed in Bell inequality violations, entanglement swapping, etc.
 
  • #36
PeterDonis said:
a. None of this means the MWI does not have to account for the experimental results. Of course it does, just as any QM interpretation does. It just doesn't do it by appealing to "mutual influences" or "remote changes".

PeterDonis said:
b. It does it by, first, saying that the wave function is all there is; second, saying that there is no collapse, so all of the possibilities contained in the wave function actually exist (meaning that measurements don't have single results--all possible results happen); and third, saying that the wave function is what enforces the correlations such as are observed in Bell inequality violations, entanglement swapping, etc.
a. Again: once someone explains how nonlocal effects are made to happen using purely local mechanisms, I can determine this for myself. But without that, I can't agree with you.

b. All possible results occur, that's exactly the problem! QM precisely predicts a) some results NEVER happen; and b) some results occur far more or far less than I would expect from MWI. Neither of these are ever explained in a detail example.

I have requested a detail explanation of a specific referenced experiment above, and I believe there is a reader who follows MWI closely enough to walk me through the logic of that example. Specifically:

Photons 1 and 4 share no common past and are distant. A equally remote observer can choose to entangle them or not. How is it that if all outcomes are possible, we always see perfect correlations when those photons are measured at the same angle settings? And in fact Photon 1 can be measured BEFORE the remote observer chooses to entangle it with Photon 4, and even before the measurement setting for Photon 4 is selected? (Keeping in mind here that the same mechanism must also produce Bell inequalities when the angle setting are different.)

And of course I am really asking how this is accomplished through some hypothetical local mechanism.
 
  • #37
DrChinese said:
i) But there are experiments in which photons become entangled that have never existed in a common past light cone. See my #25.

ii) Not sure how this statement even is supposed to make sense. OK, if there are nonlocal extended regions with information that is not present in subregions, how do remote photons 1 & 4 get entangled?
The light cones of the two 2-photon systems span the BSM. To demonstrate action at a distance to a MWI proponent, the BSM that establishes the branches with entanglement would have to be spacelike separated from both 2-photon systems, which are "type-ii" nonlocal systems. Only then would you have an eventual quantum state determined by the state outside its past light cone.
 
  • #38
PeterDonis said:
a. I'm not sure that would be possible as you state it here--the wave function would play a role similar to a "global variable", since it contains entangled degrees of freedom which can be widely separated in 3-dimensional space. (But, as has already been noted, that is true of any interpretation since they all use the same underlying math, which contains the wave function playing that same role.)

b. The first thing one would have to do to describe any experiment using the MWI would be to get rid of anything that says or implies that measurements have single results or that wave functions collapse. For example: It's not just the photon: it's everything.

c.If you ask what makes it so that everything matches up correctly in each branch, that's simple: those are the only possibilities that exist in the wave function. There is no branch of the wave function in which both photons 1 and 4 are measured along the same direction but their polarizations aren't the same. That is what it means to say that photons 1 and 4 are entangled in the parallel polarization state.

d. Whether all this counts as "local" is a different question. No "nonlocal influence" has to go between the photons during the measurements to enforce the correct correlations between the measurement results, because that is already enforced by the wave function itself, as above.
a. Global variables sound confusingly nonlocal to me. And the issue we are discussing is whether MWI is local, not the nonlocal elements of other interpretations. We already (mostly) agree that standard QM has nonlocal elements. The nonlocal extent of an entangled system is something even @vanhees71 agrees to.

b. I'm accepting this point as being a tenet of MWI. And this is actually its most appealing point, in my opinion. It would solve a lot of conceptual problems.

c. Whoa, that's completely impossible! Photons 1 and 4 aren't entangled yet! That doesn't occur until our distant observer chooses to perform the swap or not. And that can be done AFTER Photon 1 is already measured, and there has been a splitting into a V> branch and an H> branch. Photon 4 has no connection to Photon 1 whatsoever, any more than it has a connection with any other photon anywhere. There is nothing at this point that gives an indication that they will be entangled in the future.

d. This is my point. It cannot be local because distant events have yet to occur that will change Photon 4's relationship with Photon 1 from Product State to Entangled State. That occurs in the future, and MWI is supposed to strictly reject anything which does not follow Einsteinian causality. (And please, don't ask me to define that as I think everyone understands that term the same way.)
 
  • Like
Likes Lord Jestocost
  • #39
It doesn't matter what experiment we are talking about.

The mathematical derivation of the correct results, pertinent to the given experiment, using the mathematics of standard non-relativistic quantum mechanics, is exactly the same (or mathematically equivalent) in all the interpretations of non relativistic Quantum Mechanics.

The only difference is how they translate it into English words.
 
  • Like
Likes gentzen and martinbn
  • #40
Morbert said:
a. The light cones of the two 2-photon systems span the BSM.

b. To demonstrate action at a distance to a MWI proponent, the BSM that establishes the branches with entanglement would have to be spacelike separated from both 2-photon systems, which are "type-ii" nonlocal systems. Only then would you have an eventual quantum state determined by the state outside its past light cone.

a. Photons 2 and 3 meet in this particular experiment, true enough. But that is absolutely not a requirement of QM. They do not need to ever meet or exist in a common light cone either. And in fact quantum repeaters rely on that attribute to work. I can supply the references if you are not sure on this point.

b. I don't understand this angle of the argument. Photons 2 and 3 are supposed to be localized, although I concede that Photons 1 & 2 (likewise 3 & 4) can be considered to have overlapping wave functions in spacetime. When the decision is made to entangle Photons 1 & 4, however, there is no time for any change of change to propagate from that location to either Photon 1 or 4 - which you must concede had no prior connection or correlation at all*. So there must be some kind of action at a distance to explain the change in statistics for Photons 1 & 4 from Product State to Entangled State.*From the reference: "A successful entanglement swapping procedure will result in photons 1 and 4 being entangled, although they never interacted with each other. ... We confirm successful entanglement swapping by testing the entanglement of the previously uncorrelated photons 1 and 4."
 
  • #41
mattt said:
It doesn't matter what experiment we are talking about.

The mathematical derivation of the correct results, pertinent to the given experiment, using the mathematics of standard non-relativistic quantum mechanics, is exactly the same (or mathematically equivalent) in all the interpretations of non relativistic Quantum Mechanics.

The only difference is how they translate it into English words.

Well, I don't think that's actually the case. From SEP:

"The causes of our experience are interactions, and in nature there are only local interactions in three spatial dimensions. These interactions can be expressed as couplings to some macroscopic variables of the object described by quantum waves well localized in 3 D -space, which are in a product with the relative variables state of the object (like entangled electrons in atoms)..."

We all know that Bell prohibits local realistic interpretations from agreeing with the predictions of QM. So I am flat out saying that MWI must be nonlocal, precisely because its most important tenet is the realism of the wavefunction.
 
  • #42
DrChinese said:
a. Photons 2 and 3 meet in this particular experiment, true enough. But that is absolutely not a requirement of QM. They do not need to ever meet or exist in a common light cone either. And in fact quantum repeaters rely on that attribute to work. I can supply the references if you are not sure on this point.
Yes, a reference would be useful.
 
  • #43
DrChinese said:
All possible results occur, that's exactly the problem!
If you don't accept the MWI, yes, of course it's a problem. But MWI proponents don't see it as a problem, they see it as a solution: the solution to the "mystery" of "collapse of the wave function". If collapse never actually happens--if the actual dynamics is always unitary--things get a lot simpler, according to MWI proponents.

DrChinese said:
QM precisely predicts a) some results NEVER happen
In cases where this is true--because those results have zero amplitude--the MWI predicts that they don't happen as well--that there is no branch of the wave function that contains them.

DrChinese said:
and b) some results occur far more or far less than I would expect from MWI
I don't know what you mean here. MWI assigns exactly the amplitudes to each result that appear in the wave function. Those are the same amplitudes that are used to compute the probabilities of the results.

There is (at least for critics of the MWI) a serious issue with how to make sense of probabilities in the MWI, since using the concept of probability appears (at least to critics) to require that each individual measurement only has one result. MWI proponents sometimes agree that this is an issue that needs to be addressed, but they also appear to believe it has been addressed in the literature they have published.

Of course if you are an MWI skeptic, you won't agree with its proponents on claims like the above. But that's not going to be resolved here.
 
  • #44
DrChinese said:
Photons 1 and 4 share no common past and are distant. A equally remote observer can choose to entangle them or not. How is it that if all outcomes are possible, we always see perfect correlations when those photons are measured at the same angle settings?
When you say "all outcomes are possible", what do you mean? If you mean all outcomes contained in the wave function are possible, then the MWI agrees with that--and it says they all happen, because they all have branches in the wave function. And, as I have already said, the wave function is what enforces the correlations.

If you mean there are outcomes that are possible that aren't contained in the wave function, what are you basing that on? We are doing QM here, and in QM, the possible outcomes are the ones that are contained in the wave function.

If you are wondering how the MWI explains what happens when the settings are changed--when the distant observer makes the choice to either entangle or not entangle the photons--the MWI answer is that the wave function contains both possibilities for that as well (at least, assuming that some kind of quantum indeterminacy is involved in making the choice). The wave function in the MWI contains everything: the experimenters, the equipment they use, and the processes they use to choose measurement settings. The "settings chosen to entangle the photons" branch of the wave function only includes the possible results that show the required correlations; the "settings chosen not to entangle the photons" branch of the wave function only includes the possible results that don't show those correlations.
 
  • #45
DrChinese said:
c. Whoa, that's completely impossible! Photons 1 and 4 aren't entangled yet! That doesn't occur until our distant observer chooses to perform the swap or not.
As I noted in post #44 just now, the distant observer and the possible choices they can make are included in the wave function.

DrChinese said:
that can be done AFTER Photon 1 is already measured, and there has been a splitting into a V> branch and an H> branch
Since all of the measurements involved commute--and that is a fact of the basic math of QM, independent of any interpretation--the order in which the branching occurs in the MWI doesn't affect the results. It doesn't matter if the photon 1 measurement branching occurs before or after the choice of swap or no swap branching.

To put this another way, branching occurs in Hilbert space, not 3-dimensional space (or 4-dimensional spacetime if we are doing QFT). The events that are connected to branching are localized in 3-dimensional space (or 4-dimensional spacetime if we are doing QFT), but the branching itself is not. (As I have already remarked, I think this is a valid reason not to consider the MWI to be local. But it doesn't change the fact that this is how the MWI explains things.)

DrChinese said:
It cannot be local because distant events have yet to occur that will change Photon 4's relationship with Photon 1 from Product State to Entangled State. That occurs in the future
See my remarks above.

DrChinese said:
MWI is supposed to strictly reject anything which does not follow Einsteinian causality.
Do you have a reference where an MWI proponent makes this claim? As far as I know, MWI is an interpretation of QM, not relativity, and says nothing whatever about any particular concept of causality. It only claims to explain the predictions of QM.
 
  • #46
PeterDonis said:
Do you have a reference where an MWI proponent makes this claim? As far as I know, MWI is an interpretation of QM, not relativity, and says nothing whatever about any particular concept of causality. It only claims to explain the predictions of QM.
The fact that distant measurements commute is either a) simply a restatement of the idea that QM does not respect the usual Einsteinian locality/causality (i.e. quantum nonlocality is evident), or b) there are locality constraints at play (what you imply). For our discussion though, it is meaningless. QM predictions for entangled statistics are based on a future distant context. There are no experiments that demonstrate otherwise. The statements "A causes B" and "B causes A" cannot be distinguished in these as it would in a classical model. Arguing otherwise is circular reasoning.

As to the reference request: I already provided that in post #41: The causes of our experience are interactions, and in nature there are only local interactions in three spatial dimensions. These interactions can be expressed as couplings to some macroscopic variables of the object described by quantum waves well localized in 3 D -space, which are in a product with the relative variables state of the object (like entangled electrons in atoms)..." That is an absolute statement of the direction of causality being one way only.

And again I point out that a) I am the only person here providing references; and b) this thread is about someone who is a believer in MWI trying to explain how MWI operates without nonlocality. I would appreciate someone explaining how Alice observes Photon 1, splitting things into an H> branch and a V> branch, and then point out: where does the branching occur that places distant Photon 4's H> result into the same branch as Photon 1's H> result (likewise pairing the V> side) in each and every instance - without any element of Photon 1 or Photon 2 ever being near to Photon 4 (and Photon 3 never being close to Photon 2 while it is also close to Photon 4).

I say MWI is nonlocal, and experiments as referenced prove it. The Nobel committee commented about this and other related works recently: "[Anton Zeilinger's] research group has demonstrated a phenomenon called quantum teleportation, which makes it possible to move a quantum state from one particle to one at a distance." That would be action at a distance, which is what I keep saying is generally accepted science. Is the Nobel committee wrong? Does anyone seriously think they have never heard of MWI? Or are they just using loose lingo?

Apparently every MWI adherent claims these experiments are easily explained, yet I cannot find a comprehensible explanation anywhere. It's all hand waving, with no reasonable attempts to explain Bell/swapping/GHZ/etc. (I have read works by Deutsch and Vaidman and found them sorely lacking). I have provided a straightforward example from an important paper, and would appreciate someone taking some time to discuss that example without quibbling over every word.

@PeterDonis, I will gladly continue to discuss with you as long as you are willing to put in the time, but so far you have refused to make an actual statement related to the experiment I cited. Why split hairs over words when my example is right there to discuss? If you think MWI does not specify it follows Einsteinian causality, then say so unambiguously - and perhaps YOU could provide a reference for that. It is clear to me it claims to follow traditional notions of locality and causality, and goes so far to claim it is local realistic. No need for me to cite or prove that, because if someone comes along and says it doesn't, then my questions are answered.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Lord Jestocost
  • #47
DrChinese said:
The fact that distant measurements commute is either a) simply a restatement of the idea that QM does not respect the usual Einsteinian locality/causality (i.e. quantum nonlocality is evident), or b) there are locality constraints at play (what you imply).
I'm not sure I understand. If the measurements are spacelike separated, we would expect them to commute, even on classical grounds.

The mysterious part, from a classical point of view, is how such measurements can commute even when they are timelike or null separated. But "distant" is not a word I would use to describe the measurements that situation. I would describe it as a situation where, classically, we would expect causal ordering, but quantum mechanics doesn't give us that. The measurements in question could just as well take place at the same spatial location; QM doesn't require that they be spatially distant.

DrChinese said:
QM predictions for entangled statistics are based on a future distant context.
They are based on an overall context that can include measurements that are in the causal future of other measurements, but still, as noted above, commute (where classically we would expect them not to).

DrChinese said:
As to the reference request: I already provided that in post #41: The causes of our experience are interactions, and in nature there are only local interactions in three spatial dimensions. These interactions can be expressed as couplings to some macroscopic variables of the object described by quantum waves well localized in 3 D -space, which are in a product with the relative variables state of the object (like entangled electrons in atoms)..." That is an absolute statement of the direction of causality being one way only.
I'm afraid I don't agree. It is a statement of how "interactions" work in QM. In itself it is not a statement of any particular notion of causality. It certainly is not a claim that the MWI requires "Einsteinian causality".

"Interactions" is not the same thing as "entanglement". In more technical language, "interactions" refers to terms in the Hamiltonian, not properties of the quantum state. Interaction terms in the Hamiltonian are as the quote describes them. But if they are acting on entangled degrees of freedom, in QM they can do things that make no sense classically, like end up producing correlations that violate the Bell inequalities between particles that have never interacted, and indeed don't even have to have ever existed at the same time.

DrChinese said:
this thread is about someone who is a believer in MWI trying to explain how MWI operates without nonlocality.
If you think this refers to me, I don't see where you are getting it from. I have never claimed that MWI operates without nonlocality. If we define "nonlocality" as "Bell inequality violations", then obviously MWI must accept nonlocality, just as any QM interpretation must. (I have not even claimed to be a "believer in MWI".)

What I am trying to do in this thread is to make it clear what the MWI actually says and doesn't say. I am not trying to argue that the MWI is local or that it is not. But being clear about what the MWI says and doesn't say seems to me to be an essential prerequisite to even trying to evaluate whether or not the MWI is local.

DrChinese said:
I would appreciate someone explaining how Alice observes Photon 1, splitting things into an H> branch and a V> branch, and then point out: where does the branching occur that places distant Photon 4's H> result into the same branch as Photon 1's H> result (likewise pairing the V> side) in each and every instance - without any element of Photon 1 or Photon 2 ever being near to Photon 4 (and Photon 3 never being close to Photon 2 while it is also close to Photon 4).
I have already answered this question. And I have repeatedly referred you to my answer when you have repeated this question in previous posts. I don't know why you keep ignoring what I have already said.

DrChinese said:
so far you have refused to make an actual statement related to the experiment I cited
I disagree. I have made one, and I have repeatedly referred you to it. In the interest of facilitating discussion, I'll repeat the gist of it once more: the wave function enforces the correlations. The wave function already contains all the correlations you describe. That is how the MWI explains them.

If you want me to go into more detail in actually writing down how the wave function does that, that's fine, I can take a stab at it. But it would be nice if you would at least acknowledge that I have given the above answer, multiple times now.
 
  • Like
Likes mattt and Motore
  • #48
And just in case anyone thinks I am mischaracterizing something about MWI, this is from Vaidman in Plato:

a) The MWI is a deterministic theory for a physical Universe and it explains why a world appears to be indeterministic for human observers. ... The quantum state of the Universe at one time specifies the quantum state at all times.

b) The MWI does not have action at a distance.

c) The most celebrated example of nonlocality of quantum mechanics given by Bell’s theorem in the context of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen argument cannot get off the ground in the framework of the MWI because it requires a single outcome of a quantum experiment.


---------------

My comments:

a) Deterministic here means there is only forward in time causality. I would also say this is a claim of realism

b) No action at a distance here means it is local and there is no nonlocality. This is refuted by any swapping or teleportation experiment, see my post above with this from the Nobel committee: ""[Anton Zeilinger's] research group has demonstrated a phenomenon called quantum teleportation, which makes it possible to move a quantum state from one particle to one at a distance.""

c) Bell Theorem requiring "a single outcome from a quantum experiment" is not even true, but regardless: If this isn't hand-waving, I don't know what hand-waving is. It is typical of local realism proponents to invent "tacit" or "hidden" assumptions in Bell and then deny them - and end discussion there (as Vaidman has).

Bell's theorem requires only that an observer in any branch see a single outcome from a quantum experiment. There is no requirement that there are no other branches containing other observers. )Bell was certainly familiar with Everett's thesis and certainly never thought his theorem didn't apply to MWI. If you are interested, you can read about some of Bell's shifting ideas about things like Everett, Bohm and GRW here.)
 
  • #49
DrChinese said:
Deterministic here means there is only forward in time causality.
No, it doesn't. Deterministic laws can be evolved backward in time just as easily as forward. The quote you give even says so: it says the quantum state at one time specifies the quantum state at all times, not just all future times. If we could know the full quantum state of the entire universe now, according to the MWI, we would know it for all times, including all the way back to the Big Bang.

DrChinese said:
No action at a distance here means it is local and there is no nonlocality.
I would want to see a lot more detail about what Vaidman actually means by "action at a distance" before accepting any such claim (and I'll read through the article you reference again to see if I can find such detail). If, for example, you think Vaidman is claiming that the MWI does not predict Bell inequality violations, then I would expect Vaidman himself to object, since the MWI is an interpretation of QM and QM itself, independent of any interpretation, predicts Bell inequality violations.

DrChinese said:
Bell Theorem requiring "a single outcome from a quantum experiment" is not even true
I'll need to read through the article again to evaluate this as well.

I note, btw, that Zeh, in the paper you reference, appears both to be an MWI proponent (since he says he believes the Schrodinger equation is always valid) and to have no trouble accepting that the MWI is nonlocal. I also note that in the paper, he mentions David Deutsch's version of the MWI and contrasts it with his own. I would be interested in any other comments he has on the writings of the other MWI proponents you have referred to.
 
  • #50
DrChinese said:
No action at a distance here means it is local and there is no nonlocality.
PeterDonis said:
I would want to see a lot more detail about what Vaidman actually means by "action at a distance" before accepting any such claim
And it didn't take me long to find, since it's in the same paragraph of the article as the quote that you, @DrChinese, gave in post #48. Here are the last three sentences of that paragraph, which you failed to quote:

Although the MWI removes the most bothersome aspect of nonlocality, action at a distance, the other aspect of quantum nonlocality, the nonseparability of remote objects manifested in entanglement, is still there. A“world” is a nonlocal concept. This explains why we observe nonlocal correlations in a particular world.

So based on this, I definitely do not agree with the claim quoted at the top of this post.
 
  • #51
PeterDonis said:
a. I'm not sure I understand. If the measurements are spacelike separated, we would expect them to commute, even on classical grounds.

b. If you think this refers to me, I don't see where you are getting it from. I have never claimed that MWI operates without nonlocality. If we define "nonlocality" as "Bell inequality violations", then obviously MWI must accept nonlocality, just as any QM interpretation must. (I have not even claimed to be a "believer in MWI".)

c. What I am trying to do in this thread is to make it clear what the MWI actually says and doesn't say. I am not trying to argue that the MWI is local or that it is not. But being clear about what the MWI says and doesn't say seems to me to be an essential prerequisite to even trying to evaluate whether or not the MWI is local.

d. I have already answered this question. And I have repeatedly referred you to my answer when you have repeated this question in previous posts. I don't know why you keep ignoring what I have already said. ... I disagree. I have made one, and I have repeatedly referred you to it. In the interest of facilitating discussion, I'll repeat the gist of it once more: the wave function enforces the correlations. The wave function already contains all the correlations you describe. That is how the MWI explains them.
a. If there is action at a distance, then measurements might commute or they might not. In QM, there is no time ordering to its predictions. Therefore if there is AAD in QM, then they WILL commute.

On the other hand, if there is no AAD, then classically all such measurement also commute. So saying they commute only tell you that there is no AAD of the type which follow a direction from the past to the future.

b. No, I have never had the impression you are a particularly a proponent of MWI nor a proponent of the idea that MWI is local. I think you do an excellent job of discussing the wide variety of interpretations here. Often, you act as sort of a "devil's advocate". Sometimes that approach is useful, but not always.

c. Well, certainly there are a lot of claims made about MWI. I have attempted to distill what I believe is common to most descriptions, and I have read a few. They all pretty much claim that the wave function evolves locally. So how do nonlocal effects appear? If I have misrepresented some material point, how about YOU reference something rather than challenge me word by word? Fair is fair. If you don't have time to provide such reference, then skip the point rather than quibbling with me. I have made the question quite clear.

d. "The wave function enforces the correlations"? That's an answer? That isn't even a summary of an answer. The question from above is:

I would appreciate someone explaining how Alice observes Photon 1, splitting things into an H> branch and a V> branch, and then point out: where does the branching occur that places distant Photon 4's H> result into the same branch as Photon 1's H> result (likewise pairing the V> side) in each and every instance - without any element of Photon 1 or Photon 2 ever being near to Photon 4 (and Photon 3 never being close to Photon 2 while it is also close to Photon 4).

I'd like someone to walk us through the splitting and evolution of the systems point by point where they can be discussed. I think we start off in agreement, there is splitting when Photon 1 is measured (H> branch and V> branch). At that time, Photons 2 and 3 are distant to the Photon 1 measurement, but heading towards each other - soon to be swapped (or not) by the experimenter. Photon 4 is distant to Photons 2 and 3 (Photon 1 has ceased to exist). The polarization of Photon 4 will be measured last (not that ordering actually matters, it's just easier to discuss).

When and where do the H> and V> branches next split? And what are the consequences to the remaining Photons on the outcome of the branch they are in due to the splitting related to the measurement of Photon 1?
 
  • #52
PeterDonis said:
And it didn't take me long to find, since it's in the same paragraph of the article as the quote that you, @DrChinese, gave in post #48. Here are the last three sentences of that paragraph, which you failed to quote:

Although the MWI removes the most bothersome aspect of nonlocality, action at a distance, the other aspect of quantum nonlocality, the nonseparability of remote objects manifested in entanglement, is still there. A“world” is a nonlocal concept. This explains why we observe nonlocal correlations in a particular world.

So based on this, I definitely do not agree with the claim quoted at the top of this post.
Ah, I can't go there. This is exactly the hand-waving I spoke of. Yes, I had seen that and intentionally did not include it because it makes no sense in this context.

It still does NOT explain how the wavefunctions would work in a swapping setup as I have established. So what if there is nonseparability in remote objects? Photons 1 and 2 are the remote object! Photon 4 has nothing to do with anything at this point!!
 
Last edited:
  • #53
PeterDonis said:
a. No, it doesn't. Deterministic laws can be evolved backward in time just as easily as forward. The quote you give even says so: it says the quantum state at one time specifies the quantum state at all times, not just all future times. If we could know the full quantum state of the entire universe now, according to the MWI, we would know it for all times, including all the way back to the Big Bang.

b. If, for example, you think Vaidman is claiming that the MWI does not predict Bell inequality violations, then I would expect Vaidman himself to object, since the MWI is an interpretation of QM and QM itself, independent of any interpretation, predicts Bell inequality violations.

c. I note, btw, that Zeh, in the paper you reference, appears both to be an MWI proponent (since he says he believes the Schrodinger equation is always valid) and to have no trouble accepting that the MWI is nonlocal. I also note that in the paper, he mentions David Deutsch's version of the MWI and contrasts it with his own. I would be interested in any other comments he has on the writings of the other MWI proponents you have referred to.
a. Deterministic laws can (theoretically) be calculated forward and backward, true. But that's a far cry from 2 way causal laws. In retrocausal type interpretations, there are causal elements in both the future and the past. There aren't, as far as I know, any MWI proponents claiming causality works backwards to what we human perceive as the direction of time. So this is just another quibble that is not furthering the discussion.

b. Vaidman of course thinks Bell does not apply.

c. Agreed. I assume that Bell didn't think of Everett as local either, but I can't find detail on that specific point. Not that his opinion would decide the debate anyway, I just thought it is interesting to see his thoughts. Of course, GHZ only appeared right around the untimely death of Bell and no experiments had been done on that yet. And quantum teleportation much the same. Those would have certainly influenced Bell in some way.
 
  • #54
DrChinese said:
"The wave function enforces the correlations"? That's an answer? That isn't even a summary of an answer.
I disagree that it's not even a summary of an answer. And I have posted more than just that once sentence about it. But at least now you're acknowledging it and we can move on from there.

DrChinese said:
I'd like someone to walk us through the splitting and evolution of the systems point by point where they can be discussed.
Sure, I said I would take a stab at it and I will.

Let's first describe the overall setup to be sure we have it right. We have four photons. In the initially prepared state, photons 1 and 2 are entangled, and photons 3 and 4 are entangled. Both entanglements are maximal so by monogamy of entanglement there can't be any other entanglements involved.

In the middle of the experiment, so to speak, photons 2 and 3 are brought together and an experimental choice is made of whether or not to induce an entanglement swap. If a swap is induced, then after the swap (where "after" does not refer to time ordering, since as already noted it is possible to run this experiment where, for example, the photon 1 and 4 measurements are in the past light cone of the photon 2 and 3 swap/no swap decision--"after" only refers to logical ordering in terms of the analysis we are doing), photons 2 and 3 are entangled, and photons 1 and 4 are entangled. Again, both entanglements are maximal.

At the end of the experiment (which might, as noted, be in the past light cone of the "middle" described above, but it is logically the end for purposes of analysis), photons 1 and 4 are measured. To keep it simple, we will assume they are both measured along the same polarization axis, so if they are entangled, the measurements will always agree. If they are not entangled, there is an equal chance for the measurements to agree or disagree.

Now we can talk about how the MWI describes what happens to the wave function in the above. The starting wave function is, schematically (and ignoring normalization, which I will do throughout):

$$
\ket{\Psi}_0 = \ket{\psi}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} \ket{\text{ready}}
$$

where the lower case ##\psi## kets on the RHS are subscripted with the photons that are entangled in them, and the "ready" ket describes the state of the swap/no swap decision apparatus.

When photons 2 and 3 come together, either a swap happens or it doesn't. So after that decision is made (and in the MWI, the dynamics of that decision would be encoded in the Hamiltonian and would affect the wave function), the wave function becomes

$$
\ket{\Psi}_1 = \ket{\psi}_{14} \ket{\psi}_{23} \ket{\text{swap}} + \ket{\psi}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} \ket{\text{no swap}}
$$

In MWI-speak, we have had a split into two worlds: in the first, the swap happened and the entanglements are changed; in the second, the swap didn't happen and the entanglements are not changed.

When the photon 1 and 4 measurements are done, we have the final state, which will be:

$$
\begin{matrix}
\ket{\Psi}_2 = \left( \ket{\text{1 and 4 up}} + \ket{\text{1 and 4 down}} \right) \ket{\psi}_{23} \ket{\text{swap}} \\
+ \left( \ket{\text{1 and 4 up}} + \ket{\text{1 up and 4 down}} + \ket{\text{1 down and 4 up}} + \ket{\text{1 and 4 down}} \right) \ket{\psi}_2 \ket{\psi}_3 \ket{\text{no swap}}
\end{matrix}
$$

Here we have two more splits of worlds, in MWI-speak: on the "swap" side, we have a split into two worlds, in one of which photons 1 and 4 are both up and in the other they are both down; on the "no swap" side, we have a split into four worlds, corresponding to the four possible combinations of photon 1 and 4 results (since if there is no swap they are uncorrelated). (Note that I have assumed that no measurements are made on photons 2 and 3, so they just stay however they were after the swap/no swap decision is made and executed.)

Of course none of this says that the MWI is "local". The wave function itself, I would say (and Zeh says in the paper you referenced from him), is a nonlocal object, because it includes degrees of freedom that are spatially separated. But it's a perfectly good explanation of the correlations: as I said, they are enforced by the wave function, and more specifically by the possibilities that appear in the wave function. "Perfect correlation" between photons 1 and 4 if there is a swap just means the only possibilities that appear in the wave function if there is a swap are ones in which the measurement results on photons 1 and 4 agree.
 
  • Like
Likes gentzen, mattt and Motore
  • #55
DrChinese said:
This is exactly the hand-waving I spoke of.
It seems pretty clear to me: Vaidman is acknowledging that the wave function is a nonlocal object, just as Zeh says in his paper. In other words, he is saying that he agrees that the MWI is nonlocal. He agrees that the MWI predicts things like Bell inequality violations and entanglement swapping. He just doesn't think the MWI attributes these things to any "action at a distance".
 
  • #56
DrChinese said:
And just in case anyone thinks I am mischaracterizing something about MWI, this is from Vaidman in Plato:

a) The MWI is a deterministic theory for a physical Universe and it explains why a world appears to be indeterministic for human observers. ... The quantum state of the Universe at one time specifies the quantum state at all times.

b) The MWI does not have action at a distance.

c) The most celebrated example of nonlocality of quantum mechanics given by Bell’s theorem in the context of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen argument cannot get off the ground in the framework of the MWI because it requires a single outcome of a quantum experiment.
I don't see anything controversial in those three points (and the rest of the article).

If you understand what he is trying to say, I find it a quite straightforward translation of the mathematics of quantum mechanics into the English words of the Huge Everett interpretation.
 
  • Like
Likes DrChinese and gentzen
  • #57
@DrChinese This is a bit of a side questions, but it was said a few time, so I'd like to understand what the claim is. You said that quantum teleportation proves non-locality, but which form of non-locality? If you mean violations of Bell's inequalities, then no one disagrees. If you mean something else, what exactly? And why do you think the references you gave support that kind of nonlocality?
 
  • #58
mattt said:
the Huge Everett interpretation
Huge? :wink:
 
  • #59
@DrChinese I'm still interested in a reference re/post #42. I think it's useful to emphasise the timelike relation between the BSM and the preparation of both 2-photon systems that, according to MWI, gives rise to the resultant decoherent branches.
 
  • #60
PeterDonis said:
a. Let's first describe the overall setup to be sure we have it right.

b. We have four photons. In the initially prepared state, photons 1 and 2 are entangled, and photons 3 and 4 are entangled. Both entanglements are maximal so by monogamy of entanglement there can't be any other entanglements involved.

c. In the middle of the experiment, so to speak, photons 2 and 3 are brought together and an experimental choice is made of whether or not to induce an entanglement swap. If a swap is induced, then after the swap (where "after" does not refer to time ordering, since as already noted it is possible to run this experiment where, for example, the photon 1 and 4 measurements are in the past light cone of the photon 2 and 3 swap/no swap decision--"after" only refers to logical ordering in terms of the analysis we are doing), photons 2 and 3 are entangled, and photons 1 and 4 are entangled. Again, both entanglements are maximal.

d. At the end of the experiment (which might, as noted, be in the past light cone of the "middle" described above, but it is logically the end for purposes of analysis), photons 1 and 4 are measured. To keep it simple, we will assume they are both measured along the same polarization axis, so if they are entangled, the measurements will always agree. If they are not entangled, there is an equal chance for the measurements to agree or disagree.

e. Now we can talk about how the MWI describes what happens to the wave function in the above. The starting wave function is, schematically (and ignoring normalization, which I will do throughout):

$$
\ket{\Psi}_0 = \ket{\psi}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} \ket{\text{ready}}
$$

where the lower case ##\psi## kets on the RHS are subscripted with the photons that are entangled in them, and the "ready" ket describes the state of the swap/no swap decision apparatus.

f. When photons 2 and 3 come together, either a swap happens or it doesn't. So after that decision is made (and in the MWI, the dynamics of that decision would be encoded in the Hamiltonian and would affect the wave function), the wave function becomes

$$
\ket{\Psi}_1 = \ket{\psi}_{14} \ket{\psi}_{23} \ket{\text{swap}} + \ket{\psi}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} \ket{\text{no swap}}
$$g. Of course none of this says that the MWI is "local". The wave function itself, I would say (and Zeh says in the paper you referenced from him), is a nonlocal object, because it includes degrees of freedom that are spatially separated. But it's a perfectly good explanation of the correlations: as I said, they are enforced by the wave function, and more specifically by the possibilities that appear in the wave function. "Perfect correlation" between photons 1 and 4 if there is a swap just means the only possibilities that appear in the wave function if there is a swap are ones in which the measurement results on photons 1 and 4 agree.
a. Thanks as always for your time.

b. Agreed. For convenience of discussion, I am also specifying that the initial entangled states for each pair is HH+VV. That doesn't change anything of import.

c. Only difference here is I want to specify that the measurement of Photon 1 occurs prior to the swap, and the 2/3 swap prior to the Measurement of Photon 4. I recognize fully that there is no predicted difference to the outcomes, but this sequence more clearly highlights the conceptual problems of MWI. This is perfectly feasible if the experiments are performed in the same inertial reference frame.

Further: I assumed you understood that my use of the word "distant/distance" (which matches the Nobel committee's terminology) means a distance too great in spacetime to be traversed at c. Thus no signal can go from the measurement of Photon 1 to the location of the swap of Photons 2/3. Similarly, no light signal can go from the swap (BSM) on Photons 2/3 to the location of the measurement of Photon 4. And Photon 4 is likewise too far from Photon 1's measurement for any light signal to get their either.

The only events in a common light cone is the initial entangled creation of Photons 1 & 2 (and likewise with the creation of Photons 3 & 4). So I accept that under MWI, the spreading of the "joint" wave function of Photons 1 & 2 (likewise 3 & 4) ultimately means that the swap brings together the wave functions of Photons 2 & 3. That despite the fact that no signal can go from there (location of the swap) to the location of Photon 4's measurement.

Please say if these specifications are not acceptable for our discussion, these variations have all been physically realized in various swapping experiments already.

d. Agreed that the Photon 4 measurement is to be done on same basis as Photon 1, so we desire the H> branch of Photon 1 to always contain the H> branch on Photon 4. And likewise we desire the V> branch of Photon 1 to always contain the V> branch on Photon 4. Note that the choice of H/V basis is arbitrary (I am sure no issue with that). And further that it is possible (but not important here, at least not at this time), that the choice of H/V basis could be selected midflight in a spacetime location isolated from the creation of the initially entangled pairs. Further, that basis choice need not be transmitted to the swapping mechanism (which is distant).

e. Agreed, we have a Product State of 2 entangled systems which have had no interaction of any kind. In fact, the only overlap they will ever have is if the swap is executed.

f. We are not agreed on this yet, because this is what we seek to prove. The MWI proponent (and I will not dispute) would say that immediately before the swap (which is after measurement of Photon 1), we have this:

f.i)
$$
\ket{\Psi}_1 = \ket{HH}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} + \ket{VV}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} {\text{ swap ready}}
$$

We want this to evolve somehow to what you say:

f.ii)
$$
\ket{\Psi}_1 = \ket{\psi}_{14} \ket{\psi}_{23} \ket{\text{swap}} + \ket{\psi}_{12} \ket{\psi}_{34} \ket{\text{no swap}}
$$

But this is not possible. QM predicts no swap can occur for either branch of the right hand side. It is an absolute requirement of swapping that Photons 2 & 3 are indistinguishable. They aren't any longer! Photon 2 is either in the H> branch or it is in the V> branch. In either branch (which by MWI tenet cannot interfere), Photons 2 & 3 can be distinguished on the basis of polarization. And this fact can be demonstrated by experiment: place an H> filter in the path of Photon 2. No swap will occur.

This point is not mentioned in the reference, as they assume everyone knows this. So I am providing the following reference:

Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949.pdf
"If the photons are indistinguishable in all degrees of freedom, the observation of ... [photons 2 & 3] in different output ports projects ... [Photons 1 & 4] into the maximally entangled state ..."
Note: photons are used for the swap in this particular experiment, and the final entangled pair is actually electrons. I modified the quote (in brackets []) to match our labeling.

Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191.pdf
"One can also choose to introduce distinguishability between the two projected photons. In this case, ... the first and last photons do not become quantum entangled but classically correlated."

Further, it wouldn't matter if the order of events changed. In no version of branching will there be indistinguishable photons present for a swap unless (I guess) you specify the swap occurs before the measurement of Photons 1 & 4. But we already know from experiment that makes no difference at all, because explicit delayed-choice swaps (swap occurring after Photons 1 & 4 were measured) have been documented. See for example:

Experimental Nonlocality Proof of Quantum Teleportation and Entanglement Swapping
https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201134
"Such a delayed-choice experiment was performed by including two 10 m optical fiber
delays for both outputs of the BSA. In this case photons [2] and [3] hit the detectors delayed
by about 50 ns. As shown in Fig. 3, the observed fidelity of the entanglement of photon [1] and
photon [4] matches the fidelity in the non-delayed case within experimental errors. Therefore,
this result indicate that the time ordering of the detection events has no influence on the
results..."


I am adding some specific MWI quotes in my next post as something of an extension to this one.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 62 ·
3
Replies
62
Views
5K
Replies
19
Views
536
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 292 ·
10
Replies
292
Views
11K
  • · Replies 85 ·
3
Replies
85
Views
7K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
6K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
5K
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 376 ·
13
Replies
376
Views
21K
Replies
175
Views
12K