Is \(\nabla \times (f \nabla g) = \nabla f \times \nabla g\)?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the mathematical identity \(\nabla \times (f \nabla g) = \nabla f \times \nabla g\), exploring its validity through various approaches and reasoning. Participants engage in technical reasoning and mathematical exploration related to vector calculus, specifically the properties of curl and gradients.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a detailed derivation of \(\nabla \times (f \nabla g)\) and asks for verification of correctness and suggestions for continuation.
  • Another participant agrees with the derivation and introduces Schwarz's Theorem regarding the symmetry of second derivatives, suggesting it may aid in further progress.
  • Subsequent posts reiterate the application of Schwarz's Theorem and express uncertainty about how to proceed, questioning the implications for the derived expressions.
  • Participants discuss whether certain terms in the expressions could simplify to the zero vector, indicating a potential resolution to the problem.
  • There is a moment of realization regarding the expression \(\nabla f \times \nabla g\), leading to a suggestion that the discussion may be concluded.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

While some participants express agreement on the correctness of the derivation, there remains uncertainty about the next steps and the implications of the derived expressions. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the final outcome or resolution of the identity.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the need for clarity on definitions and the implications of mathematical properties, such as those from Schwarz's Theorem, but do not resolve the uncertainties regarding the expressions involved.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

I want to show that $\nabla\times (f\nabla g)=\nabla f\times \nabla g$.

We have that $f\nabla g=f\sum\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_i}\hat{x}_i$, therefore we get \begin{align*}&\nabla\times (f\nabla g)=\nabla\times \left (f\sum\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_i}\hat{x}_i \right )\\ & =\nabla\times \left (\sum f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_i}\hat{x}_i \right ) \\ & =\nabla\times \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}, f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2} ,f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3} \right ) \\ & = \left [ \frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right )-\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right ), \frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )-\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right ), \frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right )-\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (f\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )\right ]\\ & = \left [ \frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (f\right )\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}+f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right )-\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (f\right )\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right ), \frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (f\right )\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}+f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )-\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (f\right )\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right ), \frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (f\right )\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}+f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right )-\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (f\right )\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )\right ]\\ & = \left [ \frac{\partial f}{\partial x_2} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}+f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right )-\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_3} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right ), \frac{\partial f}{\partial x_3} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}+f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )-\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_1} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right ), \frac{\partial f}{\partial x_1} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}+f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right )-\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_2} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )\right ]\\ & = \left [ \frac{\partial f}{\partial x_2} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}-\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_3} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}, \frac{\partial f}{\partial x_3} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}-\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_1} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}, \frac{\partial f}{\partial x_1} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}-\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_2} \frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right ]+\left [ f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right )-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right ), f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_3} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_3}\right ), f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_1} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_2}\right )-f\frac{\partial}{\partial x_2} \left (\frac{\partial g}{\partial x_1}\right )\right ]\end{align*}

Is everything correct so far? How could we continue? (Wondering)

Or is there an other way to show this? (Wondering)
 
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Hey mathmari! (Smile)

It looks correct to me, and I'm not aware of a different way to prove it.

To continue we need to realize that:
$$\pd {}{x_2}\left(\pd{g}{x_3}\right)=\pd {}{x_3}\left(\pd{g}{x_2}\right)=\frac {\partial^2g}{\partial x_2 \partial x_3}
$$
See Schwarz's Theorem in Symmetry of second derivatives. (Thinking)
 
I like Serena said:
To continue we need to realize that:
$$\pd {}{x_2}\left(\pd{g}{x_3}\right)=\pd {}{x_3}\left(\pd{g}{x_2}\right)=\frac {\partial^2g}{\partial x_2 \partial x_3}
$$
See Schwarz's Theorem in Symmetry of second derivatives. (Thinking)

How could we continue using this property? I got stuck right now... (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
How could we continue using this property? I got stuck right now... (Wondering)

Doesn't it make the second term in your last expression become the zero vector?

And which expression are we aiming for? That is, what is $\nabla f \times \nabla g$? (Wondering)
 
I like Serena said:
Doesn't it make the second term in your last expression become the zero vector?

Ah yes! (Blush)

I like Serena said:
And which expression are we aiming for? That is, what is $\nabla f \times \nabla g$? (Wondering)

The expression that is remained is $\nabla f \times \nabla g$, so we are done! (Yes)

Thank you! (Smile)
 

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