Is Newtonian gravity still relevant in modern physics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relevance of Newtonian gravity in modern physics, particularly in the context of its teaching and application compared to Einstein's general relativity (GR). Participants explore the contexts in which Newtonian gravity remains useful and the pedagogical reasons for its continued instruction.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why Newtonian gravity is still taught if it is considered outdated, suggesting that Einstein's gravity should take precedence.
  • Others argue that Newton's theory is sufficiently accurate for many practical applications, particularly on scales comparable to human experience.
  • It is noted that GR is necessary for extreme conditions, such as high speeds or large gravitational fields, but for everyday engineering and design, Newton's laws provide adequate results.
  • One participant mentions that the Apollo program relied on Newtonian gravity, highlighting its practical application in significant historical contexts.
  • Some participants emphasize that science seeks accurate models, and in many situations, Newtonian gravity remains a valid and effective model.
  • There is a suggestion that the simplest model that meets the needs of a given situation is preferred, with the understanding that any errors are accounted for in uncertainty.
  • One participant introduces the correspondence principle, stating that while Newtonian gravity is less complete than GR, it is not incorrect and can be trusted within certain limits.
  • Concerns are raised about the impracticality of using more complex theories, like string theory or loop quantum gravity, for simple scenarios such as a cannonball's motion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the relevance of Newtonian gravity. While some acknowledge its usefulness in many contexts, others advocate for a greater emphasis on GR, leading to an unresolved discussion about the balance between simplicity and accuracy in scientific modeling.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the applicability of Newtonian gravity, particularly in extreme conditions, but do not resolve the debate over its teaching and relevance in modern physics.

SpanishOmelette
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Just a small newbie question. If Newtonian gravity is outdated and therefore inaccurate, why is it still taught?

Surely the fact that Einstein's gravity is right takes priority over the fact that Newton's method is easier.

Am I being ridiculous?

Mahmoud.
 
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SpanishOmelette said:
Just a small newbie question. If Newtonian gravity is outdated and therefore inaccurate, why is it still taught?

Surely the fact that Einstein's gravity is right takes priority over the fact that Newton's method is easier.

Start with Asimov's classic essay http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
 
On scales comparable to a human being, Newton's theory is accurate enough.
GR only becomes necessary when describing objects on very large scales and very high speeds..
It makes no practical difference in the case of ,for example, civil engineering projects, or building vehicles.
It would just make things vastly more complicated and produce no useful improvement.
In some cases though we do need to use GR, such as in synchronisation of GPS satellites.
 
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SpanishOmelette said:
Just a small newbie question. If Newtonian gravity is outdated and therefore inaccurate, why is it still taught?

Surely the fact that Einstein's gravity is right takes priority over the fact that Newton's method is easier.

Am I being ridiculous?

Mahmoud.
In this case, yes.

Newton's laws are still taught because, on the whole for many applications, they give reasonably correct answers. It is only in extreme cases where the discrepancy between the Newtonian and the Einsteinian theories can be measured with any accuracy. Often in pedagogy, it is desirable to introduce concepts gradually, starting with simple models and then progressing to more complex topics as needed, rather than starting with the most complex concepts.
 
Or look at this way.
If I want to design a weighing machine suitable for a shopkeeper selling vegetables, I can do this using Newton's laws and a make a highly accurate machine for the purpose.
I don't need to consider the possibility of billion ton vegetables moving close to light speed.
 
The Apollo program used Newtonian gravity, not general relativity.
 
SpanishOmelette said:
Surely the fact that Einstein's gravity is right takes priority over the fact that Newton's method is easier.
Hmm, I think this may be symptomatic of a misunderstanding of what science does. Science is about finding accurate models. Newtonian gravity has been experimentally confirmed to be a very accurate model for many situations. In those situations it is every bit as "right" as GR.
 
In physics, you use the simplest model that suits your purpose. Whichever error there may is included in the uncertainty.
 
If you want to understand the dynamics of a huge gravitational source as accurately as possible, use GR. If you want to be able to calculate anyone of the millions of things that involve gravity but don't require the accuracy you can get with GR, use Newtonian gravity. It's about 10,000 times simpler. Remember that many people who learn science don't become researchers, but engineers, who don't care what the most accurate theory is. They only care they have something that works well enough and is simple enough to use in their jobs.
 
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The correspondence principle implies that Newtonian gravity is not wrong; it's just not as complete as GR. This means that GR can be trusted up to higher energy scales than Newton. But GR itself is also not complete; we suspect that for certain energy scales GR will break down too.

If I want to describe a cannonball flying through the air, according to your reasoning I would have to use string theory or loop quantum gravity instead of classical physics to describe its motion. Good luck with that.
 

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