Is Quantum Statistics Self-Defeating?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of quantum statistics and whether the act of observation influences the outcomes of quantum events. Participants explore the implications of probability in sequential events and the potential paradoxes that arise from observation in quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the observation of a quantum event may increase the probability of that event occurring, especially when the event is highly improbable.
  • Another participant challenges the notion that the odds of a coin flip are affected by previous outcomes, asserting that the independence of each flip means past results do not influence future ones.
  • A different viewpoint introduces the concept of a hazard function, proposing that the passage of time without an event occurring may increase the likelihood of its occurrence in the next moment.
  • There is mention of a related paradox involving barium atoms and the idea that observation may prevent them from reaching a boiling point, suggesting a connection to the broader implications of observation in quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between observation and probability in quantum statistics. There is no consensus on whether observation increases the likelihood of an event occurring or how to interpret the implications of independence in probability.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various statistical models and concepts, such as the Poisson distribution and hazard functions, but do not resolve the complexities or assumptions underlying these discussions.

vtmemo
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Okay, here's the deal.

We all know the law of independent probability after a broken sequence. For example, if you were to flip a coin 100 times, the first 90 times coming up heads and the last one tails. We all know that each flip is 'independent' of the last flip so long as they are taken as an individual occurrence.

However, the odds of flipping a coin Heads 90 times in a row is relatively slim, thus making the odds of a Tails flip on the last one seem bigger. It's like saying "the odds against this streak occurring are high, so there is a higher probability that a flip will occur that breaks the run than one that continues it."

Here comes the big question: is quantum statistics self-defeating? That is, does observation on a quantum level change that which we observe because of sequential laws governing statistics?

For example, let's say there's an almost-infinitely improbable event that we wish to observe. Does the fact that we are observing every passing second of that event "not" occurring increase the probability of it actually occurring? I guess another way to say the idea would be:
"As the probability of something occurring approaches zero on a quantum level, the probability of it *actually* occurring under observation increases, in the sense that it will occur under observation AT ALL"

I dunno. Feels kinda like a Murphy's Law of event-related statistics, or some sort of "you can't observe it without changing it" theory.
I got bored at work :rolleyes:
 
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It dounds like you're talking about moving from discrete -> discrete cases to continuous -> discrete (like the Poisson distribution). It's hard to compare the two!
 
It's like saying "the odds against this streak occurring are high, so there is a higher probability that a flip will occur that breaks the run than one that continues it."
This is wrong. The odds against 90 heads in a row aren't high if you've already seen 89...

Or to put it another way, out of 90 flips, getting 89 heads in a row followed by a tail is just as unlikely as getting 90 heads in a row.

We all know that each flip is 'independent' of the last flip so long as they are taken as an individual occurrence.
Being independent means you can treat them each individually. If you couldn't do so, then they wouldn't be independent.
 
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The only sense in which I can relate to vtmemo's question is to think in terms of a hazard function. Every minute passing without a hazard occurring increases the chances that it will be observed in the next minute. There is a well-developed literature.
 
A (somewhat) related paradox is "barium (?) atoms will never reach the boiling point if they are being watched" (or "a watched pot never boils"). There was a thread on this somewhere on these forums. I think someone also published an article.
 

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