News Is Rick Santorum's Religious Extremism a Deal Breaker for Voters?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ThomasT
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
Rick Santorum is a prominent figure in the GOP race, attracting both support and criticism. His strong Evangelical backing helped him perform well in Iowa, but opinions vary on his viability as a candidate. Many view him as a fundamentalist Christian extremist, particularly due to his stances on issues like contraception and abortion, including his controversial comments suggesting that rape victims should "make the best out of a bad situation." Critics express concern over his perceived anti-science views, particularly his characterization of scientists as amoral, which they argue undermines the ethical considerations inherent in scientific research. The media's preference for candidates like Romney adds to the skepticism about Santorum's long-term prospects. Overall, discussions reflect a deep divide on his candidacy, with some viewing him as a serious contender while others see him as a flash in the pan due to his extreme views.
  • #151
ThomasT said:
Yes, you made the point I was trying to make in much fewer, and probably more effective, words.

What does "<>" mean?

Oh sorry...it was used in programming years ago. Guess that shows my age :redface:. It means, does not equal.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #152
lisab said:
Oh sorry...it was used in programming years ago. Guess that shows my age :redface:. It means, does not equal.
That's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't sure. In which case, I would say that atheism connotes anti-theistic religion. But yes, this is a bit off topic.

Then again, Santorum is a self-avowed theistic religious fanatic. So maybe at least some discussion of this is appropriate for this thread. I don't know, and defer to the moderators.
 
  • #153
lisab said:
Bolded: I'll believe that when an openly atheist candidate is elected president.

Label this post IMO. It's very possible we've already had an atheist President - just kept it a secret. If religion isn't made an issue, I'm not certain anyone would care.

However, to your point about an openly atheist candidate, if they chose to attack Christianity specifically - I don't think they'd have a chance of being elected. If the said they just don't belong to a church or subscribe to a religion - and didn't try to sell their philosophy - I think they would be electable based on issues.

As for the person who goes to church for weddings, funerals and the occassional special event - it's not likely they'll vote for someone because the church made an endorsement. However, if that religion is attacked by a candidate I would anticipate they would defend their religion in the same fashion a nationality, or a fraternity, or a school/neighborhood bond might be defended.
 
  • #154
Oltz said:
You are taking Distraction the wrong way. Having been in the army and having fought in Iraq please let me explain.

Women in combat are a distraction because the men are morried about protecting the women then they are about themselves or the mission. Right or not it leads to more mistakes and more bad choices. I have seen it. Women are fine in the military and are fine in non combat MOS's ie medic, supply, intel whatever.

Sorry for OT

If I recall from Spartan history, they use to assign soldier lovers to students of military. The idea was that they would better protect each other. And quite frankly, Spartans bull dozed armies for a very long time in the ancient world. So I don't buy this stuff.
 
  • #155
SHISHKABOB said:
Which makes it a bit of a problem for me here in the USA because so many people base their lives on their faith and vote according to their religion, etc. but I don't do that at all. It's important for a lot of people, but not ALL people.

In my opinion, people not only vote according to their religion, but they think of government in a religious fashion. Facts, analysis, and reasoning just simply don't matter that much. Just look at some of the attacks on science. And many of these political ideologies have become a religion to most people. In the south where I live, there even seems to be some kind of anti-educaiton culture. I've had so many people warn me about taking science because those evil professors will turn me against God. I've never had a professor encourage atheism.

At any rate, I think America is so religious because our distribution model is severely flawed. Our production keeps increasing, but you don't see improvement in much of the population; instead, it seems to be concentrated towards the top. So when a comparison is made between America and other industrialized nations, America is an outlier on religion, and it appears to be more inline with developing nations. In my opinion, this is a result of high inequality in America.
 
  • #156
Oooh! I always thought the Dutch are completely irrelevant (internationally)? Now this? :eek:
 
  • #157
I'm Dutch, and I laughed out loud when I read about that in the newspaper.

...Then I realized that guy might become president. :cry:

Also, the Dutch aren't *that* irrelevant. I think. Right? A little relevant? Maybe? *hides behind his cheese, herring and tulips*
 
  • #158
I haz no herring or tulips! What do I do!?
 
  • #159
turbo said:
I haz no herring or tulips! What do I do!?

Quick! Hide behind that windmill over there!
 
  • #160
Hobin said:
Also, the Dutch aren't *that* irrelevant. I think. Right? A little relevant? Maybe? *hides behind his cheese, herring and tulips*

I always substitute 'Finland,' a country I almost know nothing about, when 'grand' claims are made. Most people from the rest of the world are clueless, don't know where the Netherlands is situated, don't know much about the people, don't know we're a monarchy, don't have any clue why they should notice, might think we're a brand of German, etc.

I'ld say we're largely unknown, and almost utterly irrelevant except in our small corner of the world.
 
  • #161
MarcoD said:
I always substitute 'Finland,' a country I almost know nothing about, when 'grand' claims are made. Most people from the rest of the world are clueless, don't know where the Netherlands is situated, don't know much about the people, don't know we're a monarchy, don't have any clue why they should notice, might think we're a brand of German, etc.

I'ld say we're largely unknown, and almost utterly irrelevant except in our small corner of the world.

lol - thanks
nice post .


nothing to do with Rick Santorum ... but thanks.
 
  • #162
Ah well. It's not that I don't like my little country, I absolutely adore it. But "A beacon of light?" Or something close to that? I mean, get real.
 
  • #163
Oltz said:
Women in combat are a distraction because the men are morried about protecting the women then they are about themselves or the mission. Right or not it leads to more mistakes and more bad choices. I have seen it. Women are fine in the military and are fine in non combat MOS's ie medic, supply, intel whatever.
So women should be disallowed from serving in the front lines because men lack the discipline to stick to the mission?
 
  • #164
Gokul43201 said:
So women should be disallowed from serving in the front lines because men lack the discipline to stick to the mission?
Good point. I've known a number of women who I think are stronger than me emotionally and intellectually, and can physically do what might be required of them in combat. But some people want to exclude willing female candidates for combat because of obsolete historical views about women.

Santorum's views are, at least in part, imo, impaired by his adherence to obsolete historical and mythological perspectives. Given his current orientation he isn't, in my view, fit to be the chief executive of the most powerful country in the world. Compared to Santorum, Obama and the current GOP contenders seem much more sophisticated, much wiser, imho.
 
  • #165
ThomasT said:
Good point. I've known a number of women who I think are stronger than me emotionally and intellectually, and can physically do what might be required of them in combat. But some people want to exclude willing female candidates for combat because of obsolete historical views about women.

Santorum's views are, at least in part, imo, impaired by his adherence to obsolete historical and mythological perspectives. Given his current orientation he isn't, in my view, fit to be the chief executive of the most powerful country in the world. Compared to Santorum, Obama and the current GOP contenders seem much more sophisticated, much wiser, imho.

I don't know how you see it, but the way I see it, Santorum IS one of the current GOP contenders. Unless you mean the others, but Gingrich and Paul aren't exactly better.
 
  • #166
ThomasT said:
Good point. I've known a number of women who I think are stronger than me emotionally and intellectually, and can physically do what might be required of them in combat. But some people want to exclude willing female candidates for combat because of obsolete historical views about women.

Are you certain that he just doesn't want to see American women tortured/raped by animals?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #167
WhoWee said:
ThomasT said:
Good point. I've known a number of women who I think are stronger than me emotionally and intellectually, and can physically do what might be required of them in combat. But some people want to exclude willing female candidates for combat because of obsolete historical views about women.

Are you certain that he just doesn't want to see American women tortured/raped by animals?

Well that's out there. Got any sources to show that's even remotely possible? Because... well, that's out there.
 
  • #168
Char. Limit said:
I don't know how you see it, but the way I see it, Santorum IS one of the current GOP contenders. Unless you mean the others, but Gingrich and Paul aren't exactly better.
Yes, I meant the others. Imho, Gingrich and Paul are better than Santorum wrt certain criteria. Among them are Santorum's apparent male chauvinism (ok, maybe this doesn't separate him from Gingrich), and Santorum's adherence to ancient mythological (ie., fundamental Christian) views (ok, maybe this doesn't separate him from Paul either).

I guess I should just sum it up as Santorum coming across as, to me, a simple-minded religious fanatic.

But of course I could be quite wrong wrt my impression of Santorum. I hope so, considering that he might very well emerge as the GOP nominee.
 
  • #169
WhoWee said:
Are you certain that he just doesn't want to see American women tortured/raped by animals?
Or women in general? No, I'm not certain of that. But I don't think that's the case. Santorum is, as far as I can tell, a rather simple minded religious fanatic. Not fit for public office.
 
  • #170
ThomasT said:
But of course I could be quite wrong wrt my impression of Santorum. I hope so, considering that he might very well emerge as the GOP nominee.

As far as I can see (using my clouded West-European vision :wink:), Romney, Gingrich and Paul are campaigning along the lines of "Yes, religion is very important, and it should definitely have an impact on our laws. Especially christianity. MY brand of christianity."

Santorum, on the other hand, seems to me to be more the kind of person who's all "ZOMG People are pagans, sinners and unholy beings in general! You will all BURN for your sins! We, the christians of faith, are a minority and have the right to actively fight everything unholy in this world. DIE DIE DIE!"

...But maybe that's just me.
 
  • #171
Hobin said:
As far as I can see (using my clouded West-European vision :wink:), Romney, Gingrich and Paul are campaigning along the lines of "Yes, religion is very important, and it should definitely have an impact on our laws. Especially christianity. MY brand of christianity."

Santorum, on the other hand, seems to me to be more the kind of person who's all "ZOMG People are pagans, sinners and unholy beings in general! You will all BURN for your sins! We, the christians of faith, are a minority and have the right to actively fight everything unholy in this world. DIE DIE DIE!"

...But maybe that's just me.
I don't think it's just you. It's always good to get the perspective of somebody who doesn't live in the US. Where are you?
 
  • #172
ThomasT said:
I don't think it's just you. It's always good to get the perspective of somebody who doesn't live in the US. Where are you?

The Netherlands. I think you could see it in my profile.

Admittedly, I might hold a rather skewed view of politics in the USA, given that I'm not actively involved, so most of the things I've seen are the 'top-rated' stories (and thus the stories that make people think your presidential candidates are idiots). When I try to get a broader view of a candidate's political positions, I check Wikipedia - which I think might not be the most reliable source, given the (almost by definition) controversial nature of politics.

In other words, don't take my opinion too seriously. :wink:
 
  • #173
The Israelis tried putting women in combat back in the 1960s and it didn't work. Men are biologically programmed to be protective of women. If you don't think that, then tell me what you'd think of the following situation:

A man and a woman are at home sleeping in bed. A thug starts trying to break in. So the man grabs the children and hides in the closet, leaving his woman to go handle the thug. Now imagine the man trying to explain that to a television news person interviewing them on what happened. People would wonder what on Earth was wrong with that man. It doesn't matter how brave the woman is, that's just the reality of it. And I don't care what anybody says, an injured women crying out in pain has a mental affect on a man different than the same happening to a fellow man.

The other problems with women in combat are simply physical. Women do not have the physical strength for being a combat soldier. There is a large, significant, strength and size differential between men and women.

We have separate men's and women's sports teams. Try making women play on men's hockey teams and soccer teams and so forth. You'd wipe all women out of the sports.

We have separate physical fitness standards for male and female police.
We have separate physical fitness standards for male and female firefighters.
We have separate physical fitness standards for men and women in the military. Why? Because if you made women adhere to the same standards as the men, you'd disqualify a massive number of women from military service.

I am 5'10, 144 lbs, which is pretty thin by man standards and not tall. Maybe slightly above-average in terms of height. Now despite that, I am still stronger than 95% of the women out there. The only women who would be stronger than me are serious athletes who do a lot of strength training. 5'10, 144 lbs is nothing special for a man, but a 5'10, 144 lb woman is pretty big for a woman. That's a real long, tall Sally, if you will. Most women are shorter than 5'10 and if fit, around 100 - 130 lbs.

This creates some major problems when you're talking a job like infantry, where the standard combat load for an 82nd Airborne Division infantryman in Iraq was 130 lbs. Carrying all that weight does hell on a man's body, let alone a woman's:

http://www.vva1036.org/_/rsrc/1309111959257/pictures/soldier%20kneeling.jpg?height=304&width=400

And that's just standard infantry. To be in something like Special Operations (SEALs, Rangers, Special Forces, etc...), the requirements for marching distance and so forth are much higher.

Now one could say that they should only let women in who could meet the standard, but that wouldn't happen. You'd have so many women fail, that sexism would be cried, and they'd have to push a certain number through. They do this already at Airborne School, which is one of the easiest schools in the military. There's a one pullup requirement. If you can't accomplish one pullup, you're supposed to be disqualified. Do they disqualify all the girls who can't do one pullup though? NOPE, because they'd fail most of them then. It only really applies if you're a guy. To join the Marine Corps, men have to be able to do pullups. The Marine Corps PFT (Physical Fitness Test) is pullups, situps, and a three-mile run. But what is the upper-body test for a woman? A flexed-arm hang. Why? Because requiring girls to do pullups in order to join the Marine Corps would disqualify a whole lot of them. In the Army, the PFT is pushups, situps, and a two-mile run. For the 18-24 year-old men, the minimum number of pushups to pass is 40 in two minutes. What is it for the women? Managing 40 pushups in two minutes is maxing the pushups portion of the PT test for a female.

And even then, the PFTs are misleading. A woman might be capable of acing the men's PFTs for both the Army and Marine Corps, but that just means she can do lots of calisthenics and running. Load her up with a heavy amount of gear, turning her into a pack mule, and then see how far she can march. The PFTs don't really reflect the fitness needed for a combat soldier, they're just physical fitness tests created to have a base standard of PT in the military branches.

Then there's the hygiene issue. Having a vagina creates some serious hygiene problems for women if they are unable to keep that area clean constantly, an issue that men do not have. I think bravery and intelligence-wise, women are equal to men and can do things like fly helicopters and fighter planes just the same, but combat, that is trying to deny millions of years of evolution in terms of programmed behavior and physical capability.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #174
Hobin said:
As far as I can see (using my clouded West-European vision :wink:), Romney, Gingrich and Paul are campaigning along the lines of "Yes, religion is very important, and it should definitely have an impact on our laws. Especially christianity. MY brand of christianity."

Santorum, on the other hand, seems to me to be more the kind of person who's all "ZOMG People are pagans, sinners and unholy beings in general! You will all BURN for your sins! We, the christians of faith, are a minority and have the right to actively fight everything unholy in this world. DIE DIE DIE!"

...But maybe that's just me.

Well, I should say we shouldn't discuss this stuff. You might just have offended a lot of people with that comment. Btw, I am Dutch too. Seriously, you have no idea what you are getting involved in; US culture is substantially different from northern Europe, and the US is a religious place. You'll just end up insulting a lot of people if you project popular Dutch opinion on the US.
 
  • #175
Char. Limit said:
Well that's out there. Got any sources to show that's even remotely possible? Because... well, that's out there.

It seems to me the country is still squirmish over the Jessica Lynch story. If you google her - you'll find more stories that she wasn't tortured and raped than those that claim she was - again - seems squirmish to me.
 
  • #177
WhoWee said:
Are you certain that he just doesn't want to see American women tortured/raped by animals?

Wow. Most out-there straw man, *ever*.
 
  • #178
lisab said:
Wow. Most out-there straw man, *ever*.

Why is that a strawman? Wasn't the country holding it's breath when Jessica Lynch was missing?
 
  • #179
In his remarks Monday, Santorum went beyond his usual discussion of the importance of increasing domestic energy production to deliver a blistering attack on environmental activists. He said global warming claims are based on "phony studies," and that climate change science is little more than "political science."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57381369-503544/santorum-democrats-are-anti-science-not-me/
 
  • #180
Office_Shredder said:
Source? When I look for women in the Israeli army I find that they're currently eligible to serve in combat positions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal_Battalion

Not infantry though from what I understand (from what I've read the Caracal battalion isn't real infantry). Also, even if infantry, Israel doesn't have the same level of PC issues like we have in America simply due to their situation. I think I made a mistake on the 1960s, I should have said the 1948 war; Israel tried using women in combat there for about three weeks, but it was very distracting to the men and then they ended it when a group of women got ambushed and was slaughtered.
 
  • #181
WhoWee said:
Why is that a strawman? Wasn't the country holding it's breath when Jessica Lynch was missing?

Sure, but not because we were all worried what animal is raping her!

Ah well, this is the Santorum thread, isn't it...:rolleyes:
 
  • #182
lisab said:
Sure, but not because we were all worried what animal is raping her!

Ah well, this is the Santorum thread, isn't it...:rolleyes:

Is it mandatory under PC protocol to label my post - IMO - when calling an alleged rapist an animal?
 
  • #183
WhoWee said:
Is it mandatory under PC protocol to label my post - IMO - when calling an alleged rapist an animal?

But I don't see how we can prove that this is any sort of endemic problem. THAT is what's out there. It almost seems to me an assumption of "a lot of army people would probably rape women if they were around, so we shouldn't have women in the army". I don't know how you see it, but that's how I see your argument.
 
  • #184
WhoWee said:
Is it mandatory under PC protocol to label my post - IMO - when calling an alleged rapist an animal?
It might just be me, but I think it is a bit over-the-line to label front-line soldiers as animals. It is true that the military has slackened standards and has recruited some people that might not have been accepted 5-10 years ago, but that doesn't make them "animals" either.
 
  • #185
Char. Limit said:
But I don't see how we can prove that this is any sort of endemic problem. THAT is what's out there. It almost seems to me an assumption of "a lot of army people would probably rape women if they were around, so we shouldn't have women in the army". I don't know how you see it, but that's how I see your argument.

The issue isn't sex in the barracks. I'm referring to the treatment of female soldiers at the hands of their captors.
 
  • #186
turbo said:
It might just be me, but I think it is a bit over-the-line to label front-line soldiers as animals. It is true that the military has slackened standards and has recruited some people that might not have been accepted 5-10 years ago, but that doesn't make them "animals" either.

An enemy soldier that rapes his captive is an animal - IMO.
 
  • #187
WhoWee said:
The issue isn't sex in the barracks. I'm referring to the treatment of female soldiers at the hands of their captors.
There go the goal-posts!
 
  • #188
turbo said:
There go the goal-posts!

Jessica Lynch was captured - read the posts before accusing me of moving the goal posts - please.
 
  • #189
WhoWee said:
The issue isn't sex in the barracks. I'm referring to the treatment of female soldiers at the hands of their captors.

Okay, that's a different argument. I still don't agree with it, but it's a reasonable argument. It's my opinion that captive rape is a form of torture, and thus we should punish anyone who does it as a most severe war crime, but I do not think we should prevent women from joining the front line because of that. You might disagree, and on THAT specific issue, I see your point, but that's my opinion.
 
  • #190
Char. Limit said:
Okay, that's a different argument. I still don't agree with it, but it's a reasonable argument. It's my opinion that captive rape is a form of torture, and thus we should punish anyone who does it as a most severe war crime, but I do not think we should prevent women from joining the front line because of that. You might disagree, and on THAT specific issue, I see your point, but that's my opinion.

I think a woman has the right to make that choice. However, based on the Jessica Lynch event, I don't think the country is prepared for the consequences - hence my squirmish comment.
 
  • #191
Iraqi men were sexually abused and humiliated by our own troops. The idea that only females can be abused sexually is narrow-minded at best. My cousin's daughter was scheduled for deployment to that nasty prison, until she tested positive for pregnancy. The US will deploy women in a war-zone, but not pregnant women.
 
  • #192
turbo said:
Iraqi men were sexually abused and humiliated by our own troops. The idea that only females can be abused sexually is narrow-minded at best. My cousin's daughter was scheduled for deployment to that nasty prison, until she tested positive for pregnancy. The US will deploy women in a war-zone, but not pregnant women.

What is the point of your argument?
 
  • #193
Santorum showing his real colors.

Rick Santorum on Tuesday stood by comments he made in 2008 about Satan attacking the United States, telling reporters here that he is going to “stay on message” and continue to talk about jobs, security, and “taking on forces around this world who want to do harm to America.”

The three-year-old speech is getting renewed scrutiny after several Web-based publications circulated audio and text of his remarks over the holiday weekend. Speaking to a group at Ave Maria University in Naples, Fla., Santorum said, “This is not a political war at all. This is not a cultural war at all. This is a spiritual war. And the Father of Lies has his sights on what you would think the Father of Lies, Satan, would have his sights on: a good, decent, powerful, influential country: the United States of America.”
bolding mine

He just gets scarier and scarier, IMO. He's going to decide who's good and evil based on his overly zealous religious beliefs?
When reporters asked about the comments at a rally on Tuesday evening, Santorum said, “I believe in good and evil. I think if somehow or another, because you’re a person of faith, you believe in good and evil [and it’s] a disqualifier for president, we’re going to have a very small pool of candidates who can run for president.”

http://news.yahoo.com/santorum-satan-comments-2008-not-relevant-today-232700385.html
 
  • #194
WhoWee said:
What is the point of your argument?
There is no argument. The US will deploy male and female combat troops to the front. Santorum is against that, so if you like him so much, you have to make his arguments.
 
  • #195
Evo said:
Santorum showing his real colors.

He just gets scarier and scarier, IMO. He's going to decide who's good and evil based on his overly zealous religious beliefs?
We have scare-mongers on the right warning against the establishment of "Sharia Law" in the US, but some of them appear to want to establish fundamentalist theology as a foundation of our government. I have problems with that.
 
  • #196
turbo said:
There is no argument. The US will deploy male and female combat troops to the front. Santorum is against that, so if you like him so much, you have to make his arguments.

You weren't trying to argue a point (?)- my mistake.
 
  • #197
If you were Satan, who would you attack, in this day and age? There is no one else to go after, other than, the united states. And that's been the case for now, almost 200 years.
...

Rick Santorum



I'm thinking that this statement doesn't help the Catholic Churches excuse for their sex abuse scandals; That they are under attack from Satan.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #198
Evo said:
Santorum showing his real colors.

bolding mine

He just gets scarier and scarier, IMO. He's going to decide who's good and evil based on his overly zealous religious beliefs?

http://news.yahoo.com/santorum-satan-comments-2008-not-relevant-today-232700385.html

Just remember the Rev Wright is still out there with his roosters comming home to roost (stuff) - if you want to revisit speeches made in the pulpit from 2008. President Obama worshiped at the Rev Wright's church for about 20 years - if I recall correctly?
 
  • #199
WhoWee said:
Just remember the Rev Wright is still out there with his roosters comming home to roost (stuff) - if you want to revisit speeches made in the pulpit from 2008. President Obama worshiped at the Rev Wright's church for about 20 years - if I recall correctly?

Sure, but this is Santorum himself speaking. This is what he believes.
 
  • #200
jreelawg said:
Sure, but this is Santorum himself speaking. This is what he believes.

It's obvious to me (my opinion) that anyone who sits in a church for 20 years probably believes what they are hearing from the preacher - or they would go somewhere else - again, my opinion.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top