Is Symmetry Present in the Derivatives of Normal Vectors on Surfaces?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the derivative of the normalized normal vector to a surface embedded in n-dimensional Euclidean space. Participants explore the symmetry of the derivatives and the implications for Hamiltonian mechanics and differential geometry.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the derivative of the normalized normal vector n satisfies the symmetry condition \(\frac{\partial n_j}{\partial x^i} = \frac{\partial n_i}{\partial x^j}\) and seeks clarification on its implications in the context of Hamiltonian mechanics.
  • Another participant asserts that if the surface is defined by \(\phi (\vec{r})=const.\), then the normal vector can be expressed as \(n_i=(\vec{\nabla}\phi)_i\), and agrees that the symmetry condition holds in Cartesian coordinates.
  • A different participant provides a detailed expression for the derivative of the normal vector but expresses difficulty reconciling the second term of the equation, questioning its symmetry.
  • One participant acknowledges the confusion regarding the symmetry of the second term and retracts their earlier statement about needing reconciliation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the symmetry of the derivatives of the normal vector, as some participants support the symmetry condition while others express uncertainty about specific terms in the mathematical expressions.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the context of Hamiltonian mechanics and differential geometry, but the discussion does not resolve the mathematical steps or assumptions underlying the expressions provided.

rych
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Are there any facts about the derivative of the normalised normal vector n to a surface embedded in n-dimensional Euclid space? Is it true, for instance, that
\frac{\partial n_j}{\partial x^i} = \frac{\partial n_i}{\partial x^j}
The context is as follows. The surface is defined implicitly by a constraint function; there's a Hamiltonian in reduntant coordinates and the canonical Hamiltonian equations of motion for (q,p) ensuring that trajectories lie in the constraint surface. I need to find acceleration \ddot{q}; there the time derivative of n appears. By the way, how could I reformulate this task in the language of differential geometry?
 
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If the surface is given by \phi (\vec{r})=const. then the normal to the surface is n_i=(\vec{\nabla}\phi)_i, it's not necessarilly unit normal, but this is easily reconciled. So, in Cartesian coordinates

\frac{\partial n_j}{\partial x^i} = \frac{\partial n_i}{\partial x^j}

is correct.
 
Last edited:
\frac{\partial n_j}{\partial x^i} = \partial_i \frac{\partial_j \phi}{(\nabla \phi \cdot \nabla \phi)^\frac{1}{2}} = \frac{\partial_{ij}\phi}{(\nabla \phi \cdot \nabla \phi)^\frac{1}{2}} - \frac{\partial_j \phi \sum_k \partial_k \phi \partial_{ik}\phi}{(\nabla \phi \cdot \nabla \phi)^{\frac{3}{2}}}

Thanks for the response! But I can't easily reconcile the second term: it doesn't seem to be symmetric.
 
rych said:
\frac{\partial n_j}{\partial x^i} = \partial_i \frac{\partial_j \phi}{(\nabla \phi \cdot \nabla \phi)^\frac{1}{2}} = \frac{\partial_{ij}\phi}{(\nabla \phi \cdot \nabla \phi)^\frac{1}{2}} - \frac{\partial_j \phi \sum_k \partial_k \phi \partial_{ik}\phi}{(\nabla \phi \cdot \nabla \phi)^{\frac{3}{2}}}

Thanks for the response! But I can't easily reconcile the second term: it doesn't seem to be symmetric.

It's not, ignore me when I put the bit about "reconcilitation", I didn't mean to put that.
 

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