Is the universe examining itself?

[RAD4921]

If we examine the universe and we are made up of the universe then the universe is examining itself. It is no doubt "looking" at itself. Do you agree?

 

[arildno]

That's basically Hegel's view: Man is the universe become self-conscious.

 

[selfAdjoint]

John Wheeler has a famous diagram of the universe as a gigantic U, with an eye at the top of one branch looking at the other branch. He rejects the simple interpretation of this that humanity created the Universe and all its past by observing for the last few millenia, but certainly his thought, however nuanced, tends that way.

 

[saltydog]

If we examine the universe and we are made up of the universe then the universe is examining itself. It is no doubt "looking" at itself. Do you agree?

I have difficulty comtemplating what "looking at itself" means since itself is what is doing the looking but it's looking at what is doing the looking. I hate writing awkwards . . .

 

[Justinius]

If we examine the universe and we are made up of the universe then the universe is examining itself. It is no doubt "looking" at itself. Do you agree?

How are we made up of the universe? Is the universe not made up of life, planets, galaxies, etc? I need clarification on this one before I can comment further.

 

[saltydog]

How are we made up of the universe? Is the universe not made up of life, planets, galaxies, etc? I need clarification on this one before I can comment further.

Alright, my favorite example:

I once saw this picture: It was a profile of a man that was made out of little stick-and-ball molecules. The man was looking intently at something in his hand . . . it was another stick-and-ball molecule.

Salty

 

[Microburst]

How are we made up of the universe? Is the universe not made up of life, planets, galaxies, etc? I need clarification on this one before I can comment further.

Assembled out of or rather derived from, resources found in the universe or rather known universe. I think the host is talking about the “fabric” of universe.

 

[Problem+Solve=Reason]

No I don't. I do believe the universe alows for a place for us to dwell, kind of like a matrix. Just because we dwell in the universe doesn't me we ARE the universe... And I am talking about not neurons, bones, or muscles but something deeper, like a consciousness or soul.

 

[Justinius]

No I don't. I do believe the universe alows for a place for us to dwell, kind of like a matrix. Just because we dwell in the universe doesn't me we ARE the universe.

This is exactly what I mean as well. If we say we are the universe we are equivocating ourselves with something that is greater than ourselves.

Each of us has his/her own subjective experiences within our lives. The prefix "Uni" signifies oneness, a certain unity throughout the universe. If each of us has our own subjective experiences, and we are the universe, then there is no more oneness within the universe, thus contradicting the notion of "uni."

 

[Icebreaker]

We are part of the universe. To say there's anything beyond our flesh is mere arrogance on our part.

 

[PIT2]

We are part of the universe. To say there's anything beyond our flesh is mere arrogance on our part.

Now if only we knew what 'the flesh' is.

 

[Microburst]

Noun: 'Universe' Everything that exists anywhere.

Universe as a container implies that there is something outside, thus it can not be a “universe” by today’s definition. Now I am not disagreeing with you, since we simply lack the knowledge in true nature of the universe and its fabric. That’s like asking, what energy is? do you know the true nature of energy? its extreme fundamentality?

Our habit of exploration (science) is few thousand years old, universe on the otherhand is little more then that …
So let’s keep discovering…

 

[arildno]

Let's suppose that the universe is examining itself:
Does it matter?
Or, if it does matter, does it matter that it matters?

Marvin, the paranoid android.

 

[Microburst]

It matters within the frame of reference, we may not be the only explorers, we might not even be the 1st or the last, and again we lack information? Keep exploring…

 

[Icebreaker]

Let's suppose that the universe is examining itself:
Does it matter?
Or, if it does matter, does it matter that it matters?

Marvin, the paranoid android.

Let's suppose that INSERT_SCIENTIFIC_THEORY_HERE.
Does it matter?
Or, if it does matter, does it matter that it matters?

 

[Problem+Solve=Reason]

We are part of the universe. To say there's anything beyond our flesh is mere arrogance on our part.

-What scientifically disproves the soul?
-Whatever answers you just came up with, and are now (I presume) well known scientific facts, where once ideas just like the idea of a soul.
-So why is this idea false, when the others are true?
-The only thing arrogant is your statement.

Does it matter?
Or, if it does matter, does it matter that it matters?

I would say that it only matters if it gives us the disired conclusion, or solved the problem at hand. Beyond that, math and science are mind games, like chess or logic puzzles.

________________________________________
In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool.
Lord Chesterfield

 

[Icebreaker]

-What scientifically disproves the soul?
-Whatever answers you just came up with, and are now (I presume) well known scientific facts, where once ideas just like the idea of a soul.
-So why is this idea false, when the others are true?
-The only thing arrogant is your statement.

Oh, really? Give me one shred of evidence supporting this "soul" of yours.

 

[RAD4921]

Hegal's remark

That's basically Hegel's view: Man is the universe become self-conscious.

Thanks for the input. It seems I see the same as Hegal.

 

[RAD4921]

Self reference

John Wheeler has a famous diagram of the universe as a gigantic U, with an eye at the top of one branch looking at the other branch. He rejects the simple interpretation of this that humanity created the Universe and all its past by observing for the last few millenia, but certainly his thought, however nuanced, tends that way.

I see what it means. I saw a painitng in a book of a pair of hands are painting one another called "Drawing Hands" by M.C. Escher.

 

[RAD4921]

The universe

Assembled out of or rather derived from, resources found in the universe or rather known universe. I think the host is talking about the “fabric” of universe.

No I am talking about the universe. Any part of the universe is included with the term I am referring to. The "fabric of space is included".

 

[RAD4921]

Survival of the fittest.

Let's suppose that the universe is examining itself:
Does it matter?
Or, if it does matter, does it matter that it matters?

Marvin, the paranoid android.

When put into a perspective nothing much matters in this existence except for subjects concerning survival.

 

[Photongod]

Those of you interested in this topic might wish to do a Google search under:
"Einstein+Pantheism" Or "Scientific Pantheism"
There is a lot on the web about this topic

Photongod

 

[RAD4921]

Thanks

Those of you interested in this topic might wish to do a Google search under:
"Einstein+Pantheism" Or "Scientific Pantheism"
There is a lot on the web about this topic

Photongod

I Am aware of Pantheism and I find it very interesting. Thanks for the suggestions. Rad

 

[PIT2]

Oh, really? Give me one shred of evidence supporting this "soul" of yours.

Alright, here's a little shred:

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience.31 NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation.

 

[RAD4921]

NDEs and the soul

Alright, here's a little shred:

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

I have read a couple of books on NDEs, one I am reading right now called "Lessons From the Light" by Kenneth Ring. It is an interesting subject. I think this is what is getting at the core of the subject of the thread. The fact the universe is looking at itself shows something of the central role consciousness plays in the universe. The universe has a mind because we have a mind. Some would argue that the mind of man is only the universe self conscious in part but even from that perspective one cannot help but be in awe over the mystery of existence.

 

[Problem+Solve=Reason]

Oh, really? Give me one shred of evidence supporting this "soul" of yours.

Can you imagine the purpose for this body of yours (lets say there is no soul) to want to survive? What would it be? Why would a brain, in all it's complexity, desire one thing over another? If there was nothing behind that mesh of brain, no measurements could be made, for what quality would 1 have from 2, or red from white.

Those are just some things you can ponder.

 

[PIT2]

I have read a couple of books on NDEs, one I am reading right now called "Lessons From the Light" by Kenneth Ring. It is an interesting subject. I think this is what is getting at the core of the subject of the thread. The fact the universe is looking at itself shows something of the central role consciousness plays in the universe. The universe has a mind because we have a mind. Some would argue that the mind of man is only the universe self conscious in part but even from that perspective one cannot help but be in awe over the mystery of existence.

What is interesting about NDE's is that it even appears our consciousness can survive our own body. That link i mentioned earlier clearly states that several patients have proven to have consciousness during a flat EEG(clinical death).

I also read this article a few days ago:

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=126649

Youve probably heard about the PEAR and Global Consciousness Project before. They are some clear signs that consciousness can influence matter, and not the other way around.

Also, if you enjoy NDE stories, i suggest you go to this site

http://www.iands.org/

Also take a look in the forum. The revelations section is interesting too.

Heres a post of one of the NDErs that i thought was true(its a reply to a report where some doctor claims that the brain creates geometrical images identical to the external world, and that this disproves NDE experiences in some way):

Amazing how those wacky, fun-loving neurons then take the next step and organize themselves into life-like replicas of deceased relatives and friends who tell you to go back the way you came because it isn't yet your time! In Pam Reynolds' case, it must have been "ghost" neurons doing this because she had no brain activity. When I walk down the hallway of my office, I encounter some fairly consistent geometric patterns -- because they are THERE, not because my neurons are amusing themselves. Without having seen the professor's article, it seems to me that this may be an example of two techniques that one often encounters in the skeptical literature:

(1) Because the phenomenon you describe ("X") can't possibly be real but bears a passing resemblance to an established phenomenon ("Y"), it MUST have been Y -- especially since your own testimony isn't scientific evidence and counts for nothing. You and two friends thought you saw a metallic 100-foot disk with glowing orange windows that was directly above your heads and blocked out the night sky, but since this is impossible you were in fact among the many who have failed to recognize a bolide meteor.

(2) "Explaining" the entire phenomenon by focusing on one aspect of it while ignoring the rest. Many bolide meteors are orange and your UFO had orange windows, so we may safely assume that you saw a bolide meteor -- even though it looked to you and your friends like a humming 100-foot disk that hung directly above your heads for five solid minutes.

I don't think anyone would question that geometric patterns are commonly produced by the brain -- all you have to do is close your eyes and watch the patterns unfold. However, it seems to me like a major leap to suggest that this fact explains NDEs.

 

[Chronos]

Self awareness certainly ranks near the top of list for the most incomprehensible pheonomena in the known universe. The apparent nature of the universe suggests such things cannot be destroyed, merely transformed.

 

[loseyourname]

I have a professor (and he obviously isn't the only person to ever think this) that says if we consider mind to be an emergent property of sufficiently complex information-processing machines, then it is entirely possible for higher minds than our own to exist, indeed even for something like the solar system or galaxy to have some strange analog of mind. Of course, it would be a pure experiencing mind, without any of the capacity to act that humans have due to our having a nervous system hooked up to our minds. It's a bit of a twist on the old pantheist view, although I personally feel that, even should such a thing exist, calling a mind that did not create anything and does not have the ability to act "God" is a misrepresentation of what the term usually denotes.

 

[RAD4921]

I posted a similar thread called "the self aware universe" or something close to that, that address the same issue in different words. One can argue varying degrees of self awareness but even the most scientific mind cannot deny that the universe is examining itself with quantum mechanics and cosmology.