Is There Credible Evidence Supporting Psychic Phenomena?

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The discussion centers on the evidence for psychic phenomena, particularly through the lens of specific cases like that of Etta Smith, who claimed to have a psychic vision that led her to a missing body. Participants debate the validity of such claims, with some asserting that while skeptics argue there is no proof of psychic events, there are instances that could be considered evidence, such as police reports and testimonies. Critics suggest that these cases can often be explained by intuition or unconscious expertise rather than paranormal abilities. The conversation also touches on the placebo effect as a potential parallel to psychic phenomena, highlighting the mind's influence on physical health and suggesting that if the mind can heal the body, it may also be capable of other unexplained abilities. However, many emphasize the need for controlled studies to substantiate claims of psychic abilities, pointing out that anecdotal evidence does not equate to proof.
  • #91
zoobyshoe said:
I understand and accept burden of proof. It's what my initial casual support of Mammo's point was about. Zelos made this claim:



"No one tries because they know they will fail". This is a claim. The burden of proof of that claim, by your own standards, is on zelos, or you, if you support his claim, to prove that all who won't take the test won't take it for the reason that they know they will fail. Would you care to step in for zelos and prove to me that this is the only possible motivation for not taking the test? I think you should because you objected to Mammo's suggestion there might be other reasons for not taking the test, calling that suggestion speculative. If that suggestion is speculative then you must have some proof that the only reason people won't take the test is because they know they will fail. The issue is motivation. There has been a claim made about motivation.

I don't think that claim should be unchallenged because, from my extensive (relative to you) reading on the subject of mysticism, I am aware that there are people who claim psychic powers ("claim" in the informal manner described to you earlier), but who would not take such a test despite complete confidence (warranted or not) they would pass it.


And I came in because of the speculative nature of the explanation for why no one will take the test.


How someone can be described as shy and still make a claim for psychic powers has been the subject all along? That was only the subject of one exchange: you asserted they couldn't be that shy if they made such claims, I explained, but instead of addressing my explanation of how someone can be described as shy and still make claims for psychic powers you went off on a tangential discourse about how people's belief in such things is always speculative.
My answer is that they could be charlatains. Why would you claim to be physics and refuse to be tested? Maybe because you're a fake? What could be the motivation to be tested? A million dollars seems like quite a motivation if you are the real deal.

Not saying that your scenario isn't possible, but if you thought you were really psychic, wouldn't the chance to make a million dollars at least tempt you to prove that you are for real?
 
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  • #92
Evo said:
My answer is that they could be charlatains. Why would you claim to be physics and refuse to be tested? Maybe because you're a fake? What could be the motivation to be tested? A million dollars seems like quite a motivation if you are the real deal.

Not saying that your scenario isn't possible, but if you thought you were really psychic, wouldn't the chance to make a million dollars at least tempt you to prove that you are for real?
The Russian girl, mentioned earlier, did just that. The testing was devised by Randi and therefore biased to give a negative result, in my opinion. Anyone who saw this TV programme would surely be disuaded from trying themselves.
 
  • #93
Evo said:
A million dollars seems like quite a motivation if you are the real deal.

Not saying that your scenario isn't possible, but if you thought you were really psychic, wouldn't the chance to make a million dollars at least tempt you to prove that you are for real?

The kind of people I'm referring to have strict moral codes of one kind or another. An Hassidic Rabbi, for example, would not take such a test despite full confidence they would pass it because they would consider it sinful to make money and acquire cheap fame by publically parading a sacred power from a divine source.
 
  • #94
ZapperZ said:
But does she know that she's being watch EACH time? How can she tell if she has missed something, because obviously the times that she didn't realize she was stared at did not count as a "failed" data point. So of course she thinks she has the ability without realizing how many other times she didn't have such awareness.

Zz.
I understand what you mean, although he is quite technically minded, being an amateur military historian. BTW I've just remembered a book I read years ago, which I got from a local bookstore. It was about Russian KGB espionage experiments into 'mind control'. I was fascinated by the account of a top scientist reporting how he tested the ability of the general public being able to detect whether they were being watched by him from his high floor window. He said that only a few certain types of people responded, and that it didn't work on people in general. You'd have to read the book yourself of course to gauge an opinion.

The consequences of this possible phenomenon are far reaching. It would put a whole new angle on ufo experiences, for example.
 
  • #95
Mammo said:
I understand what you mean, although he is quite technically minded, being an amateur military historian. BTW I've just remembered a book I read years ago, which I got from a local bookstore. It was about Russian KGB espionage experiments into 'mind control'. I was fascinated by the account of a top scientist reporting how he tested the ability of the general public being able to detect whether they were being watched by him from his high floor window. He said that only a few certain types of people responded, and that it didn't work on people in general. You'd have to read the book yourself of course to gauge an opinion.

The consequences of this possible phenomenon are far reaching. It would put a whole new angle on ufo experiences, for example.

But this remote sensing isn't new. Even the US military foolishly tried it during the cold war.

I believe Bob Park covered this aspect in his "Voodoo Science" book. If not, he certain has tackled it in his weekly "What's New" column. As with psychics, they never seem to work when being put under a systematic, controlled test.

Zz.
 
  • #96
ZapperZ said:
But this remote sensing isn't new. Even the US military foolishly tried it during the cold war.

I believe Bob Park covered this aspect in his "Voodoo Science" book. If not, he certain has tackled it in his weekly "What's New" column. As with psychics, they never seem to work when being put under a systematic, controlled test.

Zz.
I don't believe in the 'remote viewing' idea because I can't imagine a mechanism that would work, nor have I seen anything that has convinced me of it even possibly being a real phenomenon. The 'sense of being watched' is different from all the other claims. A simple line of sight fits particle physics theory, and the grey matter of the brain could be the receiver. It's more logical compared to all the other claims of psychic ability. I believe that it should be thoroughly re-tested, although I know that not a single qualified scientist would dare venture into this territory. It's simply out of fashion for one thing. Old hat.
 
  • #97
Mammo said:
I don't believe in the 'remote viewing' idea because I can't imagine a mechanism that would work, nor have I seen anything that has convinced me of it even possibly being a real phenomenon. The 'sense of being watched' is different from all the other claims. A simple line of sight fits particle physics theory, and the grey matter of the brain could be the receiver. It's more logical compared to all the other claims of psychic ability. I believe that it should be thoroughly re-tested, although I know that not a single qualified scientist would dare venture into this territory. It's simply out of fashion for one thing. Old hat.

But it HAS been tested! That talk that I attended mentioned such a thing. If this is real, we would have been inundated with news reports on this already.

Furthermore, there's a problem with using physics to justify such a thing. More often than not, it is a bastardization of physics when such a thing is used, meaning they take the superficial understanding of some principle of physics, but ignore others. Entanglement is often invoked by these mystics to justify a lot of their beliefs, but then they fail to considers other issues surrounding entanglement, such as how difficult it is to maintain coherence of the entangled particles with each other.

Invoking something out of physics to justify such a thing has never been a good tactic.

Zz.
 
  • #98
ZapperZ said:
But it HAS been tested! That talk that I attended mentioned such a thing. If this is real, we would have been inundated with news reports on this already.

Furthermore, there's a problem with using physics to justify such a thing. More often than not, it is a bastardization of physics when such a thing is used, meaning they take the superficial understanding of some principle of physics, but ignore others. Entanglement is often invoked by these mystics to justify a lot of their beliefs, but then they fail to considers other issues surrounding entanglement, such as how difficult it is to maintain coherence of the entangled particles with each other.

Invoking something out of physics to justify such a thing has never been a good tactic.

Zz.
No, what I saw was the highest qualified UK parapsychologist make a sweeping statement that the phenomena doesn't exist, when I clearly saw evidence to suggest the contrary. It's all about bias and preconceived world-views. It would have been career suicide for the scientist to pursue the anomaly of the woman who reacted to being watched, which he himself said was interesting. But he chose not to, declaring that statistically it was proven that there was no effect.

The exploration of a physical mechanism for any claimed psychic ability is not bad practice. It should also be remembered that physics doesn't know everything, and the standard model may well be debunked itself in the forthcoming LHC experiment. Until then we will just have to wait. If the standard model is proven to be incorrect, then there will be sufficient motivation for the experiments to be repeated in detail. I believe that the implications are enormous, especially with regard to ufo experiences. It could be that cryptozoological bioluminescent 'things with wings' are responsible for giving any potential visitors from outerspace bad PR. This is something with worldwide implications.
 
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  • #99
Mammo said:
No, what I saw was the highest qualified UK parapsychologist make a sweeping statement that the phenomena doesn't exist, when I clearly saw evidence to suggest the contrary. It's all about bias and preconceived world-views. It would have been career suicide for the scientist to pursue the anomaly of the woman who reacted to being watched, which he himself said was interesting. But he chose not to, declaring that statistically it was proven that there was no effect.

The exploration of a physical mechanism for any claimed psychic ability is not bad practice. It should also be remembered that physics doesn't know everything, and the standard model may well be debunked itself in the forthcoming LHC experiment. Until then we will just have to wait. If the standard model is proven to be incorrect, then there will be sufficient motivation for the experiments to be repeated in detail. I believe that the implications are enormous, especially with regard to ufo experiences. It could be that cryptozoological bioluminescent 'things with wings' are responsible for giving any potential visitors from outerspace bad PR. This is something with worldwide implications.

Let me, once and for all, straighten out this "standard model" crap with the LHC. If they don't find the Higgs, the standard model DO NOT GET SCRAPPED!

That's like saying we throw away Newtonian mechanics just because it has been shown to be not valid everywhere. You will note that many Higgless models also use almost everything that was known using the Standard Model. Many of the theorists that I talk to at work have ready alternatives without the Higgs, and NONE of them has ever said that the Standard Model will be gone, especially when they use the very same parameters out of it. The standard model didn't topple when we found the neutrino oscillation. Why? Because how we got the mixing angle out of it came with the help of the Standard Model itself!

Secondly, this isn't the issue of physics not being able to explain everything. It is the issue of bastarding physics principle as justification to validate such paranormal claims. It means that if the physics is wrong, then those who make claims based on it are even in deeper crap in terms of valid justification. Your "line of sight with particles" will collapse if your based your justification on the physics involved. So now you have no more valid justfication.

Zz.
 
  • #100
Ivan Seeking, aren't you being excessively aggressive against Randi with that argument about magician being a different from a scientist? I don't think that anyone in particular has confused JREF with a scientific source. There has not been such explicit statement, at least. Also, indeed, for example I used a wording "scientific journals also", indicating that scientific journals are different from possible Randi's reports.

jostpuur said:
Is there something suspicious about Randi's power to accept and reject who ever he wants? Scientific journals also choose who they allow to publish, but you don't have problem with that?

So (even though I probably wasn't very careful intentionally, originally, frankly) my post did not contain an implicit assumption that JREF would be a scientific source (anyway).

But isn't Randi's challenge highly relevant still, concerning the scientific data? If somebody (or some group) proves, in controlled circumstances, the existence of psychic abilities, publishes measurements about this phenomena in credible scientific journal, then this person (or group) will also get the Randi's prize. So we can deduce, that since nobody has claimed the Randi's prize, hence nobody has published proof about existence of psychic abilities in a credible scientific journal. This deduction does not rely on a false assumption that JREF would be a university or college, or something else which it is not.

So Randi's challenge has the positive effect, that if somebody talks about existence of scientific data of psychic abilities, I don't need to start going through some journals to check those claims myself.

I am interested to to know if there are people who have published in credible journals, and feel being ignored by the Randi.

Ivan Seeking said:
While I applaud Randi for his debunking of charlatans, he is not a scientific resource and his challenge means nothing.

Ivan Seeking said:
The forum rules clearly define what is acceptable as a scientific reference, and what's not. These rules apply to every forum at PF. Only papers published in an appropriate, mainstream, peer-reviewed journal, may be used as a scientific reference.

Just to be clear, this is not a point for discussion. The rules are the rules, and there is nothing special about Randi except that he has a million dollars to lose.

Your opinion that Randi's challenge means nothing, is you own, and is not in particular protected by the forum rules. You should not attempt to create confusion between your opinions, such as this, and forbidden discussion topics.
 
  • #101
  • #102
jostpuur said:
Your opinion that Randi's challenge means nothing, is you own, and is not in particular protected by the forum rules. You should not attempt to create confusion between your opinions, such as this, and forbidden discussion topics.

What you are really objecting to is that I won't make a special exception to the rules for Randi. The rules apply to all forums. If you don't accept them, you can leave.
 
  • #104
zoobyshoe said:
I've never really read in depth about the psychology of professional "hit" men but I think it's safe to assume that because their motives are completely different you'd find a completely different way of handling the body.

You might be interested in this interview. There's "naturals" who don't have a fear response (like The Iceman) who are actually physically/chemically born without the adrenal fear response. The psychological profiler mentioned that people like this can be useful to society to, in jobs like firefighting and police work. Here's the interview with him:

A quote from the show "Richard Kilenski is not a serial killer."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5740692213665972395

But then I think the kids who are raised into it and get desensitized and repress their feelings about it as a survival mechanism are a bit different and more susceptible to emotional decisions.
 
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  • #105
Count Iblis said:
If Randi isn't good enough, will Prof. Dr. G. 't Hooft do?

http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/parabet.html

Only papers published in a mainstream academic journal may be used as a scientific reference. That is a minimum requirement in all forums.

Consider this: We don't allow the JSE to be used as a scientific reference either, but it is peer-reviewed [by scientists]!
http://www.scientificexploration.org/

One can hardly cry foul over Randi.
 
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  • #106
One does find the occasional oddity in an appropriate journal, such as this

Abstract Theoretical explication of a growing body of empirical data on consciousness-related anomalous phenomena is unlikely to be achieved in terms of known physical processes. Rather, it will first be necessary to formulate the basic role of consciousness in the definition of reality before such anomalous experience can adequately be represented. This paper takes the position that reality is constituted only in the interaction of consciousness with its environment, and therefore that any scheme of conceptual organization developed to represent that reality must reflect the processes of consciousness as well as those of its environment. In this spirit, the concepts and formalisms of elementary quantum mechanics, as originally proposed to explain anomalous atomic-scale physical phenomena, are appropriated via metaphor to represent the general characteristics of consciousness interacting with any environment. More specifically, if consciousness is represented by a quantum mechanical wave function, and its environment by an appropriate potential profile, Schrödinger wave mechanics defines eigenfunctions and eigenvalues that can be associated with the cognitive and emotional experiences of that consciousness in that environment. To articulate this metaphor it is necessary to associate certain aspects of the formalism, such as the coordinate system, the quantum numbers, and even the metric itself, with various impressionistic descriptors of consciousness, such as its intensity, perspective, approach/avoidance attitude, balance between cognitive and emotional activity, and receptive/assertive disposition. With these established, a number of the generic features of quantum mechanics, such as the wave/particle duality, and the uncertainty, indistinguishability, and exclusion principles, display metaphoric relevance to familiar individual and collective experiences. Similarly, such traditional quantum theoretic exercises as the central force field and atomic structure, covalent molecular bonds, barrier penetration, and quantum statistical collective behavior become useful analogies for representation of a variety of consciousness experiences, both normal and anomalous, and for the design of experiments to study these systematically.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/vtrr87tg356154r7/

But I can only find papers supporting the assertion above - a growing body of empirical data on consciousness-related anomalous phenomena - in the JSE.

Math Is Hard made the following observation: Consciousness-related anomalous phenomena - C.R.A.P.

[from the same author]
Experiments in Remote Human/Machine Interaction
BRENDA J. DUNNE AND ROBERT G. JAHN
Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research, C-131 Engineering Quadrangle,
Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544
Abstract—Several extensive experimental studies of human/machine interactions
wherein the human operators and the target machines are separated by distances
of up to several thousand miles yield anomalous results comparable in
scale and character to those produced under conditions of physical proximity.
The output distributions of random binary events produced by a variety of microelectronic
random and pseudorandom generators, as well as by a macroscopic
random mechanical cascade, display small but replicable and statistically significant
mean shifts correlated with the remote operators' pre-stated intentions, and
feature cumulative achievement patterns similar to those of the corresponding
local experiments. Individual operator effect sizes distribute normally, with the
majority of participants contributing to the overall effect. Patterns of specific
count populations are also similar to those found in the corresponding local experiments.
The insensitivity of the size and details of these results to intervening
distance and time adds credence to a large database of precognitive remote perception
experiments, and suggests that these two forms of anomaly may draw
from similar mechanisms of information exchange between human consciousness
and random physical processes.
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/jse_papers/6REM%20i0892-3310-006-04-0311.pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Brenda+J.+Dunne&hl=en&lr=
 
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  • #107
Pythagorean said:
You might be interested in this interview...
The difference between serial killers and hit men is actually way off topic to my original point about John Douglas' amazing ability to see incomprehensibly specific things in a crime scene. My proposition was that if one person can do it at all, for any reason, (i.e. if it's within human capability) than others may also do it anomalously, by accident, and erroneously ascribe it to "psychic" mechanisms. The paper linked to by Count Iblis argues that we all have savant abilities which are over-ridden by other brain processes:

Count Iblis said:
It may be the case that people who seem to have psychic abilities in reality have abilities similar to savants, see e.g. here:

http://www.centreforthemind.com/publications/SavantNumerosity.pdf

Savants are extremely rare individuals who, although often severly brain impaired,
frequently by autism, can display islands of astonishing excellence in the same peculiarly
restricted areas, across all cultures. Their skills are literal, non-symbolic, and appar-
ently not derived from practice. They often emerge `spontaneously' and do not improve
qualitatively with time, even though the skill might be better articulated. Savants typically
have no idea how they do it (Rimland 1963; Treffert 2000, 2005).
In the words of one pioneering researcher, their ``gift springs so to speak from the
ground, unbidden, apparently untrained and at the age of somewhere between five and
eight years of age. There is often no family history of the talent'' and it ``is apparently
not improved with practice'' (O'Connor 1989, page 4).
It has been hypothesised (Snyder and Mitchell 1999) that savants have privileged
access to raw sensory details, before these details are assembled into concepts, mean-
ingful labels, and holistic pictures. All brains possesses this same raw information but,
without some sort of brain dysfunction, or altered states of mind (Humphrey 2002;
Sacks 2003), it is normally beyond conscious access. We tend to see the whole and
not the parts (Howe 1989, page 83). Savants tend to see the parts and not the whole.
They are literal with an inclination to focus on local, rather than global aspects
of the scene, and to recall detail without meaning (Rimland 1963; Frith and Hill 2003;
Snyder 2004).
4.2 Why does being literal enhance numerosity?
How does being literal enhance numerosity? We argue that it removes our unconscious
tendency to group discrete elements into meaningful patterns, like grouping stars into
constellations, which would normally interfere with accurate estimation. By being literal,
a savant sees elements as discrete and disconnected, thus removing this interference.
This explanation is consistent with the fact that the accuracy of estimating numbers
of elements depends on their arrangement (Ginsburg 1976, 1991; Boles 1986; Ginsburg
and Goldstein 1987; Dehaene 1997) and even on the sensory properties of the stimulus
(Barth et al 2003). As Krueger (1984) concluded, ``...perceived numerosity depends more
on higher level cognitive factors...than on lower level perceptual or sensory factors''.
Indeed, the healthy normal brain makes hypotheses in order to extract meaning
from the sensory input, hypotheses derived from prior experience (Gregory 1970, 2004;
Snyder and Barlow 1988; Snyder et al 2004). If perceived numerosity depends on
higher-level cognitive factors, then the estimation of number is likely to be performed
on this hypothesised content, not on the actual raw sensory input, thus exaggerating
errors in estimation that would otherwise be absent.
In sum, we argue that the estimation of number by normal people is performed
on information after it has been processed into meaningful patterns. The unconscious
meaning we assign to these patterns interferes with our accuracy of estimation, whereas
savants, by virtue of being literal, have less interference. This, together with the fact
842 A Snyder, H Bahramali, T Hawker, D J Mitchell
that it takes only a handful of precise measurements to calibrate our number estimation
system (Dehaene 1997, page 71), could explain the reported numerosity feats of savants.
So, my proposal is something like this: provided a news report contains the right " raw data" about a murder victim, a housewife only half listening to the TV in a sort of trance state might suddenly "know" where the body is for the same reasons Rainman knew there were exactly 248 spilled toothpicks. Rainman, himself, can't explain how he knows this, so neither could the housewife, and, popular culture being what it is, her first suspicion would be that she had a "psychic" insight.
 
  • #108
zoobyshoe said:
The difference between serial killers and hit men is actually way off topic to my original point about John Douglas' amazing ability to see incomprehensibly specific things in a crime scene. My proposition was that if one person can do it at all, for any reason, (i.e. if it's within human capability) than others may also do it anomalously, by accident, and erroneously ascribe it to "psychic" mechanisms. The paper linked to by Count Iblis argues that we all have savant abilities which are over-ridden by other brain processes

Yeah, I feel the same way about things like "karma": it could very well be a real phenomena that is a result of people's intuition.

If you've heard of or seen the new series "Lie To Me" they go into the (science?) of facial muscles and other muscle movements as a doorway to people's minds, but then they also talk of "naturals" (the dialogue is cheesy, yes) who intuitively read people's emotions by subtle facial motions. Any successful investigator could be a "mind reader" in this aspect.
 
  • #109
Pythagorean said:
Yeah, I feel the same way about things like "karma": it could very well be a real phenomena that is a result of people's intuition.

If you've heard of or seen the new series "Lie To Me" they go into the (science?) of facial muscles and other muscle movements as a doorway to people's minds, but then they also talk of "naturals" (the dialogue is cheesy, yes) who intuitively read people's emotions by subtle facial motions. Any successful investigator could be a "mind reader" in this aspect.

There is a blind man who was shown to have the ablity to detect emotional expressions on people's faces.

Destruction of the brain's primary visual areas leads to blindness of cortical origin. Here we report on a subject who, after bilateral destruction of his visual cortices and ensuing cortical blindness, could nevertheless correctly guess the type of emotional facial expression being displayed, but could not guess other types of emotional or non-emotional stimuli. Functional magnetic resonance imaging showed activation of the right amygdala during the unconscious processing of emotionally expressive faces.
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v8/n1/abs/nn1364.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm

In my opinon, this doctor deserves Randi's million. The blind man is processing optical information in a manner that is independent of the classical definition of sight. It is a second form of "sight" - a previously unknown sense.
 
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  • #110
Ivan Seeking said:
In my opinon, this doctor deserves Randi's million. The blind man is processing optical information in a manner that is independent of the classical definition of sight. It is a second form of "sight" - a previously unknown sense.

It is not a previously unknown sense, but proof for a previously suspected "association" between the right amygdala and unconscious processing of visual stimuli. What this demonstrates is that information from the eyes is sent to the amydala for emotional processing independently of its processing in the primary visual cortices of the occiputal lobes, not just in this man, but in all people. From your second link:
Scientists were able to establish that emotion displayed on a human face is registered in an area other than the visual cortex.

The area involved was identified as the right amygdala, an almond-shape structure situated deep within the brain's temporal lobe.

"This discovery is... interesting for behavioural scientists as the right amygdala has been associated with subliminal processing of emotional stimuli in clinically healthy individuals," said Dr Pegna.

"What 'patient X' has assisted us with establishing is that this area undoubtedly processes visual facial signals connected with all types of emotional facial expressions."

It's already known that all parts of every sense are not all processed at the same location, though there is usually a more central focus. In addition the penomenon of "blindsight" is already known about and studied: people whose blindness results from some brain damage as opposed to eye damage can often see and process some of what they see unconsciously, while experiencing a subjective sense of being totally blind.
 
  • #111
zoobyshoe said:
people whose blindness results from some brain damage as opposed to eye damage can often see and process some of what they see unconsciously, while experiencing a subjective sense of being totally blind.

yeah, I seriously doubt this experiment would pan out the same way if his eyes were actually broken.
 
  • #112
zoobyshoe said:
It is not a previously unknown sense, but proof for a previously suspected "association" between the right amygdala and unconscious processing of visual stimuli. What this demonstrates is that information from the eyes is sent to the amydala for emotional processing independently of its processing in the primary visual cortices of the occiputal lobes, not just in this man, but in all people. From your second link:

We all know what we mean by "sight". This is not ordinary sight. It is a process of perceiving information that we never knew existed. Also, to recognize expressions is a highly complex process; far beyond even the demonstration that simple stimuli can act on a region of the brain. It suggests that we perceive and process complex information in a way that was never imagined before - a truly subliminal mechanism of complex communication. If ESP or any such claims are true, ultimately this would be true of them as well. Also, nothing in Randi's challenge says that it has to be unique to one or a few people.

Here is one definition of paranormal:
adjective: seemingly outside normal sensory channels
http://www.onelook.com/?w=paranormal&ls=a

If this were simply a claim made by someone besides a scientist who can explain the process, he would certainly qualify for Randi's challenge. That is to say that if a blind man walked in claiming that he can detect emotions, he would have qualified. The only difference is that here we have some idea what is happening. That is, we had the experimental evidence before we ever knew the claim.

Consider this: What would be the state of the claim if we didn't have the brain scans? Most people would likely conclude that he isn't really blind, which would be false.

If humans are found to communicate through pheromones, would that qualify as "ESP". I say yes. If you disagree, then show me a mainstream journal or text where this is cited as a known human sense.

The point is that any real phenomenon must have a corresponding physical mechanism whether we understand it or not. To say something doesn't qualify as "paranormal" because we can identify a previously unknown mechanism, is a matter of tense - it was paranormal [hence a crackpot claim] yesterday, but not today. If we take that approach, the word "paranormal" has no meaning; nor does any challenge to these claims.
 
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  • #113
ZapperZ said:
That's like saying we throw away Newtonian mechanics just because it has been shown to be not valid everywhere...

Secondly, this isn't the issue of physics not being able to explain everything. It is the issue of bastarding physics principle as justification to validate such paranormal claims. It means that if the physics is wrong, then those who make claims based on it are even in deeper crap in terms of valid justification. Your "line of sight with particles" will collapse if your based your justification on the physics involved. So now you have no more valid justfication. Zz.
I'm a supporter of the scientific method and of science in general. But there are more holes in the current knowledge than swiss cheese. This is what I am talking about. There is a big difference between a hotch-potch of mathematical models and a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, which can explain the creation and subsequent 'big bang' by simulation. A psychic claim which requires 'beyond line of sight' information exchange (such as remote viewing) does not lend itself to the current scientific theory in the way that a simpler 'in line of sight' psychic claim does (such as ESP in people who are blind or the ability to detect when being stared at).

BTW I remembered seeing a TV documentary where bushmen of Africa still practiced an ancient art of pursuing their quarry until the animal died of exhaution. The bushman would follow and track, keeping the animal in sight as much as possible to unnerve it. This way the body temperature of the quarry could not cool down even when resting in shade. The upright walking of man has allowed evolution of bigger brains because there is less exposure to the Sun and therefore the heat producing big brain is compensated for. The profuse sweating and ability to carry water allows the bushman to maintain a manageable body temperature whilst pusuing a prey species. This could be the behaviour that has led to the 'psychic gene' (if psychic ability is ever scientifically tested positive) being within the present human population. Pure speculation of course, but still relevant I feel.

Ivan Seeking said:
There is a blind man who was shown to have the ablity to detect emotional expressions on people's faces.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v8/n1/abs/nn1364.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm

In my opinon, this doctor deserves Randi's million. The blind man is processing optical information in a manner that is independent of the classical definition of sight. It is a second form of "sight" - a previously unknown sense.
I agree Ivan Seeking. It's a shame I can't read the full report, but it has the sound of something that could be genuine.

Ivan Seeking said:
We all know what we mean by "sight". This is not ordinary sight. It is a process of perceiving information that we never knew existed. Also, to recognize expressions is a highly complex process; far beyond even the demonstration that simple stimuli can act on a region of the brain. It suggests that we perceive and process complex information in a way that was never imagined before - a truly subliminal mechanism of complex communication. If ESP or any such claims are true, ultimately this would be true of them as well. Also, nothing in Randi's challenge says that it has to be unique to one or a few people.

If this were simply a claim made by someone besides a scientist who can explain the process, he would certainly qualify for Randi's challenge. That is to say that if a blind man walked in claiming that he can detect emotions, he would have qualified. The only difference is that here we have some idea what is happening. That is, we had the experimental evidence before we ever knew the claim.

Consider this: What would be the state of the claim if we didn't have the brain scans? Most people would likely conclude that he isn't really blind, which would be false.

The point is that any real phenomenon must have a corresponding physical mechanism whether we understand it or not. To say something doesn't qualify as "paranormal" because we can identify a previously unknown mechanism, is a matter of tense - it was paranormal [hence a crackpot claim] yesterday, but not today. If we take that approach, the word "paranormal" has no meaning; nor does any challenge to these claims.
I've been a part of a similar 'blindsight' experience myself, whilst staying at a buddhist weekend retreat, years ago. The bald heads and contemplative atmosphere was very surreal. A blind lady (who was very engaging) did a demonstration by picking where we were sitting, even after moving seats to try and fool her. I remember being initially very skeptical, but then very impressed. I hope one day that mainstream science will take this line of investigation seriously. I don't think it really has any everyday use, but it could explain why some people are more prone to ufo abduction experiences for example. Could there really be living creatures, 'things with wings', that are occasionally terrifying people into thinking that they are having an interaction with a visitor from outerspace? I believe it is just possible, and think that it should be recognised as such.
 
  • #114
Ivan Seeking said:
We all know what we mean by "sight". This is not ordinary sight.
The point is that this has been a part of ordinary sight all along. All it means is that, in all of us, the visual information is sent to the amygdala for emotional processing, without having first to go to the visual cortex. (I'm assuming for the sake of argument this man was properly tested and all other experimenters would get more or less the same better than chance results from him.)
It is a process of perceiving information that we never knew existed.
There's nothing new about the process of perception of information here at all: the rods and cones are stimulated by light as usual and the signals are sent in the usual way. The discovery here is that the processing by the amygdala takes place independently of the processing by the visual cortex. They both get the same information. The amygdala makes us emotionally conscious of it, the visual cortex makes us visually conscious of it. That is: the amygdala orchestrates our emotional experience, and the visual cortex our visual experience. It seems counterintuitive but this man's case demonstrates we can have the emotional processing of the stimulus without also having the visual processing. All the physics and chemistry and biology is within normally understood bounds here. Neuroscientists, as I mentioned before, have known about blindsight for quite some time. This is simply more progress in understanding that whole interesting phenomenon. It is not the breakthrough it seems to you.

It suggests that we perceive and process complex information in a way that was never imagined before - a truly subliminal mechanism of complex communication. If ESP or any such claims are true, ultimately this would be true of them as well. Also, nothing in Randi's challenge says that it has to be unique to one or a few people.

Here is one definition of paranormal:
adjective: seemingly outside normal sensory channels
http://www.onelook.com/?w=paranormal&ls=a

If this were simply a claim made by someone besides a scientist who can explain the process, he would certainly qualify for Randi's challenge. That is to say that if a blind man walked in claiming that he can detect emotions, he would have qualified. The only difference is that here we have some idea what is happening. That is, we had the experimental evidence before we ever knew the claim.
I don't really want to get into a discussion of who might qualify for Randi's challenge here. The forum mentor is quite adamant about Randi not being a scientific resource, and I think you are risking his ire by continued reference to that persona-non-grata. ;)

Consider this: What would be the state of the claim if we didn't have the brain scans? Most people would likely conclude that he isn't really blind, which would be false.

If humans are found to communicate through pheromones, would that qualify as "ESP". I say yes. If you disagree, then show me a mainstream journal or text where this is cited as a known human sense.

The point is that any real phenomenon must have a corresponding physical mechanism whether we understand it or not. To say something doesn't qualify as "paranormal" because we can identify a previously unknown mechanism, is a matter of tense - it was paranormal [hence a crackpot claim] yesterday, but not today. If we take that approach, the word "paranormal" has no meaning; nor does any challenge to these claims.
We had this discussion three or four years back. It's part and parcel of many claimant's stand (though apparently not yours) that ESP and paranormal phenomena are the results of forces and energies unknown to, and undetectable by, science. To the extent, however, these phenomena might be proven real, and also actually to have tangible physical mechanisms (like instant savant counting of huge numbers of objects, the mechanism of which would show up in some way, I'm sure, on a brain scan) then I think they should be reclassified as sensory and normal. If someone can pass Ran...er a certain test, before the ability is even accepted as real by science then, sure, you could get away with saying the "paranormal" has been proved.
 
  • #115
Mammo said:
I'm a supporter of the scientific method and of science in general. But there are more holes in the current knowledge than swiss cheese. This is what I am talking about. There is a big difference between a hotch-potch of mathematical models and a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, which can explain the creation and subsequent 'big bang' by simulation. A psychic claim which requires 'beyond line of sight' information exchange (such as remote viewing) does not lend itself to the current scientific theory in the way that a simpler 'in line of sight' psychic claim does (such as ESP in people who are blind or the ability to detect when being stared at).

If the current state of knowledge is full of holes, the current state of knowledge of paranormal phenomena is non-existent! Why? While things that we know exist in science are becoming more well-known as time progresses, paranormal claims are still stuck at First Base in trying to show their existence, even after hundreds of years of such claims, with no progress in sight.

And as a condensed matter physicist, I claim that there's no such thing as "theory of everything". Read Robert Laughlin's article that I've mentioned all over PF.

BTW I remembered seeing a TV documentary where bushmen of Africa still practiced an ancient art of pursuing their quarry until the animal died of exhaution. The bushman would follow and track, keeping the animal in sight as much as possible to unnerve it. This way the body temperature of the quarry could not cool down even when resting in shade. The upright walking of man has allowed evolution of bigger brains because there is less exposure to the Sun and therefore the heat producing big brain is compensated for. The profuse sweating and ability to carry water allows the bushman to maintain a manageable body temperature whilst pusuing a prey species. This could be the behaviour that has led to the 'psychic gene' (if psychic ability is ever scientifically tested positive) being within the present human population. Pure speculation of course, but still relevant I feel.

It is pure speculation and violates PF Guidelines. I too can speculate with the best of them and you can't prove me wrong. So how does this adds to your argument? In fact, I would say that it degrades your point because you have to resort to such speculation as justification.

Zz.
 
  • #116
Mammo said:
I don't think it really has any everyday use, but it could explain why some people are more prone to ufo abduction experiences for example. Could there really be living creatures, 'things with wings', that are occasionally terrifying people into thinking that they are having an interaction with a visitor from outerspace? I believe it is just possible, and think that it should be recognised as such.

Um...do you have a ufo abduction experience you want to share? It's a theme that seems to be cropping up in your posts as a non-sequitor. I have the feeling you want to get something off your chest.
 
  • #117
ZapperZ said:
If the current state of knowledge is full of holes, the current state of knowledge of paranormal phenomena is non-existent! Why? While things that we know exist in science are becoming more well-known as time progresses, paranormal claims are still stuck at First Base in trying to show their existence, even after hundreds of years of such claims, with no progress in sight.

And as a condensed matter physicist, I claim that there's no such thing as "theory of everything". Read Robert Laughlin's article that I've mentioned all over PF.

It is pure speculation and violates PF Guidelines. I too can speculate with the best of them and you can't prove me wrong. So how does this adds to your argument? In fact, I would say that it degrades your point because you have to resort to such speculation as justification. Zz.
I haven't seen the Robert Laughlin link, but it seems common sense to me to think that one day a complete physical picture of reality will prevail. The practice of investigating anomalies of existing 'scientific laws' is relatively new. The exploration of the 'two-way mirror experiment' anomaly is in the same area as the Pioneer gravitational anomaly in my opinion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #118
To warrant as a genuine psychic ability, I think a blind person would have to be blindfolded in any such experiments.
 
  • #119
Please note that we are not interested in personal or fringe theories. The only qualified discussion addresses any existing evidence for claims of psychic phenomena, and the nature and strength of that evidence.
 
  • #120
Ivan Seeking said:
jostpuur said:
Your opinion that Randi's challenge means nothing, is you own, and is not in particular protected by the forum rules. You should not attempt to create confusion between your opinions, such as this, and forbidden discussion topics.
What you are really objecting to is that I won't make a special exception to the rules for Randi. The rules apply to all forums. If you don't accept them, you can leave.

Actually I was not objecting the lack of exception to the rules for Randi, but instead saying that your opinion that Randi's challenge means nothing, is your own, and is not particularly protected by the forum rules.

In my opinion the Randi's challenge means very much, for the reason what I explained in the post #100.
 

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