Is There Evidence for a Creator of the Universe?

[GeorgCantor]

I think you have that a bit backward. An atheist has no belief. An atheist needs no belief. It is the ones that worship supernatural beings that have belief and hold to that belief with faith.

How would you answer the question - "Does god exist?"

 

[Evo]

How would you answer the question - "Does god exist?"

I see no evidence for it.

 

[GeorgCantor]

I see no evidence for it.

Some see clues that may be interpreted as evidence. It depends how rigorous you have to be. Conventional explanations(that includes the scientific method) run into a tower-of-turtle problem.

We didn't see evidence for gravity bending space and for the existence of matter that did not reflect light. We now know better than that.

Abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence.


BTW, "I see no evidence for it" is not how you come across in these types of discussions. "I see no evidence for it" speaks to me more of an agnostic, than of an atheist. If i were an atheist, I wouldn't be afraid to state that "God doesn't exist"

 

[n.karthick]

Whatever it may be, the existence of God is not going to bring any change in development of physics. Whatever has men learned and the knowledge obtained about Nature till now is without any help of Supreme being. There is no evidence that scientists had supernatural powers which was given to them by some Supreme being to enable them to discover laws of Nature.

If existence of something is not affecting us in anyway then we can very well assume that it is not existing.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

BTW, "I see no evidence for it" is not how you come across in these types of discussions. "I see no evidence for it" speaks to me more of an agnostic, than of an atheist. If i were an atheist, I wouldn't be afraid to state that "God doesn't exist"

Atheism implies not neccesarily "strong atheism", i.e. the conviction that God does not exist, but rather a predisposition to not believe in the supposed God. You can be agnostic and atheist at the same time.

 

[Gokul43201]

There can be no copious evidence related to a god/creator, because that would be in a scale that we cannot observe accurately. That same grace cannot be extended to pink unicorns, or supportive pillars of Turtles, for which there is observational evidence showing that neither exist.

This has got to be the gazillionth post here speaking of the existence of evidence that is yet to be cited. I suspect that all this supposedly copious evidence is about as real as your creator-being or my purple jellyfish.

 

[Gokul43201]

The fact that that the fundamental physical constants appear fine tuned for the emergence and possibility of life and the fact that life(observers) are able to comprehend the said universe is a VERY big red lamp to the UNbiased thinker. To me, it means that your belief may be unfounded(the belief that god, as a prime cause, doesn't exist and existence is meaningless).

1. Your post is a non-sequitur. The evidence we are talking about is supposedly "evidence against" the existence of supernatural creatures such as magical teapots, omnipotent jellyfish, etc.

2. But you make a good separate argument, aimed instead at the question posed in the OP - one about fine-tuning. I'll get to this in a later post, when I have a little more time.

3. It seems that your guesses about my beliefs are unfounded.

 

[Gokul43201]

As Mr. SPoD and nismaratwork pointed out, we're now into a working definition of magic? I'd hazard saying that the porcelain has hit the fan, no?

No, it hasn't, as were are not, nor ever were debating the definition of magic. The first person that raised this possibility provided a definition that I agreed with and found quite satisfactory (and admitted that it was essentially with this definition in mind that I had been using the term in this thread). So there really is no debate here about the definition, and I don't see what led you to believe that this was a major sticking point in the discussion.

 

[Gokul43201]

Yet, NONE of the testable or untestable assumptions say anything about prime causes. Your premise that some of the assumptions are better is invalid, as they don't apply to beginnings and existence.

So many problems within that brief span of text.

1. The sets of assumptions that produce no testable predictions are exactly those that posit the existence of a creator being. Therefore, they do say something about prime causes. It looks like you may have misunderstood my post.

2. The non-equivalence of different sets of assumptions, is not a premise of my argument, it is a conclusion.

3. Sets of assumptions, are not intended to answer questions. That is the role of models constructed upon those assumptions.

4. You have (as yet) provided no logical argument behind the implicit assertion that because models based on one set of assumptions have no answer for question Q, that there exists an equivalence between all sets of assumptions (and the models built upon them). [If this is not what you assert, please clarify what it is that you do assert.] And question Q need not be one about prime causes either. There are several more questions that are as yet unanswered by modern science. Positing the existence of a supernatural being to "answer" each unanswered question is exactly what mankind likes to do and has done for centuries.

Why does it rain? Because the creator-being is weeping at the ignorance of his creations!

A deity is consistent with all the evidence. That's why it will always take a leap of faith to 'refute' it. What seems like a reasoanble assumption to you might seem like an unreasonable one to others.

This is irrelevant, in no small part because I have no desire (nor have I made any attempt) to 'refute' a deity. And consistency is besides the point (since supernatural beings need not be constrained by logical reasoning) . A deity that continuously shapes everyday events can be constructed that is consistent with each separate natural or artificial event in history, yet the construction of such deity serves no explanatory role. Moreover, the entire set of questions Q* regarding the deity itself are now verboten.

 

[Gokul43201]

BTW, "I see no evidence for it" is not how you come across in these types of discussions. "I see no evidence for it" speaks to me more of an agnostic, than of an atheist. If i were an atheist, I wouldn't be afraid to state that "God doesn't exist"

You seem to not know what atheism is. In it's most general definition, it is an absence of belief, not a belief in an absence. You are picking a narrow subset within the broad set of atheists and imposing the properties of the subset on the entire set.

 

[nismaratwork]

Maybe this will help Georg, if you raised someone in a box without any knowledge of religion or notions of a god, and they never bothered to ponder their existence or its source, they would be... an ATHEIST! They need never consider the question of divinity at all to be atheists, they simply need to lack belief, as Gokul has said.

 

[DaveC426913]

"I see no evidence for it" speaks to me more of an agnostic, than of an atheist. If i were an atheist, I wouldn't be afraid to state that "God doesn't exist"

You'd be wrong on both counts.

Agnosticism:
Wrong: not sure about the existence of God
Right: God is unknowable in this life

Atheism:
Wrong: a conviction that God does not exist
Right: a lack of theism

 

[alt]

You seem to not know what atheism is. In it's most general definition, it is an absence of belief, not a belief in an absence. You are picking a narrow subset within the broad set of atheists and imposing the properties of the subset on the entire set.

Really ? I thought atheism was a disbelief in god, not just an absence of belief. In fact, general definitions from a couple of common dictionaries state;

Atheism; The doctrine or belief that there is no God

Atheist; Someone who denies the existence of god

.. which seems a lot stronger than mere absence of belief. In fact, breaking the word down to it's Greek components, I think we get;

'a' - in this case a negation
'theism' - belief in a god

ie, a negation in the belief of god.

Anyway, I hope this thread isn't locked anytime soon. I've been following it with great interest, and find the vast majority of posts informative, insightful, but above all, friendly and very interesting - a rare thing in debates concerning god.

 

[DaveC426913]

Atheist; Someone who denies the existence of god

Would you say this defintion was written with an unbiased hand (it contains a hidden assumption that there is something that needs denying)?

It's kind of like this definition:

Believer: someone who is under the delusion that God exists.

Hm?

'a' - in this case a negation

a- is not a negation; a- means without

i.e. without God

 

[alt]

Would you say this defintion was written with an unbiased hand (it contains a hidden assumption that there is something that needs denying)?

It's kind of like this definition:

Believer: someone who is under the delusion that God exists.

Hm?

Very true.

PS - do you know of any unbiased hands ?

a- is not a negation; a- means without

i.e. without God

OK - in which case the term 'agnostic' would be more suitable to describe 'absence of belief', ie, 'without belief.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

No, agnostic means "absence of knowledge".

 

[nismaratwork]

Remember, "ab" "ad"... and these are sometimes shortened to "a-".

Examples:

Abnormal - away from
Advent - "down" from
Agnosia - "nullifcation" or "non" knowledge (from gnosis)

This should prove useful here, and Atheist, is here. http://www.virtualsalt.com/roots.htm

"A-Theist" Not Theistic
"A-Gnostic" Not Knowing

Get it guys? DaveC is right here, period, end of story.

 

[alt]

'a', 'ab', 'ad'

Yes, away from, down, a nullification, without,

and, opposite in some cases,

and, I said a little earlier 'a negation', although I probably meant a nullification as nismaratwork pointed out above (unless I can find some word that 'a' negates, lol).

Anyhow, I certainly didn't intend to bog down the discussion. I was merely remarking that 'a lack of theism' was a little, er, soft for 'atheism' IMO, but I can certainly see the sense in what others have posted.

 

[nismaratwork]

I am so happy to have gotten a little wordplay in, I don't think you've bogged anything down.

 

[DaveC426913]

'a', 'ab', 'ad'

Yes, away from, down, a nullification, without,

and, opposite in some cases,

and, I said a little earlier 'a negation',

'without' and 'opposite' are not synonymous.

They are only synonymous when exactly two options are available.

If you assume the only two options are
belief in God
and
belief in no God
then sure, they might as well be synonymous.


But there is a third option:
no belief


So, 'without belief' as distinct from 'belief in the negative' is important here.

 

[Gokul43201]

Really ? I thought atheism was a disbelief in god, not just an absence of belief. In fact, general definitions from a couple of common dictionaries state;

Atheism; The doctrine or belief that there is no God

Atheist; Someone who denies the existence of god

.. which seems a lot stronger than mere absence of belief. In fact, breaking the word down to it's Greek components, I think we get;

Can you provide links to those definitions, or cite the sources? They both refer to the narrower definition, within the broader one.

See, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

To me, there is little difference between a disbelief and an absence of belief. (To simplify) If something passes a threshold for credibility, it is believable; else it is not. It's the same test I apply to all things in life, whether it be the purchase of a bridge across the East River from Manhattan, or the role of omnipotent magical beings.

'a' - in this case a negation
'theism' - belief in a god

ie, a negation in the belief of god.

Negation of a belief, is not a belief in a negation. Moreover, you are confusing the prefix 'a-' with the prefix 'anti-.

See, for instance: http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2838/

a-, an- +
(Greek: a prefix meaning: no, absence of, without, lack of, not)

These prefixes are normally used with elements of Greek origin, a- is used before consonants and an- is used before vowels.

If I am without a belief in a god, then that's all one can say about that.

EDIT: I see now that some of this has been covered in posts above.

 

[nismaratwork]

'without' and 'opposite' are not synonymous.

They are only synonymous when exactly two options are available.

If you assume the only two options are
belief in God
and
belief in no God
then sure, they might as well be synonymous.


But there is a third option:
no belief


So, 'without belief' as distinct from 'belief in the negative' is important here.

To make your point clear in a non-relgious arena, let's consider "color".

Chromatic, meaning "colored"
Achromitic, meaning "without color" not a negation of the existence of color.

Atheism "without theism" not "against theism" which would be negation.

As I said, you are right right right here.

 

[nismaratwork]

Can you provide links to those definitions, or cite the sources? They both refer to the narrower definition, within the broader one.

See, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
To me, there is little difference between a disbelief and an absence of belief. (To simplify) If something passes a threshold for credibility, it is believable; else it is not. It's the same test I apply to all things in life, whether it be the purchase of a bridge across the East River from Manhattan, or the role of omnipotent magical beings.

Negation of a belief, is not a belief in a negation. Moreover, you are confusing the prefix 'a-' with the prefix 'anti-.

See, for instance: http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2838/
If I am without a belief in a god, then that's all one can say about that.

Perhaps we need another option in the common lexicon:

Theism
Agnosticism
Atheism
Antitheism

Oh, and "abtheism" for lapsed Catholics.

 

[alt]

'without' and 'opposite' are not synonymous.

They are only synonymous when exactly two options are available.

If you assume the only two options are
belief in God
and
belief in no God
then sure, they might as well be synonymous.


But there is a third option:
no belief


So, 'without belief' as distinct from 'belief in the negative' is important here.

Yes, having explored it further as I / we have now done here, I accept the above.

 

[alt]

Can you provide links to those definitions, or cite the sources? They both refer to the narrower definition, within the broader one.

See, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism



To me, there is little difference between a disbelief and an absence of belief. (To simplify) If something passes a threshold for credibility, it is believable; else it is not. It's the same test I apply to all things in life, whether it be the purchase of a bridge across the East River from Manhattan, or the role of omnipotent magical beings.

Negation of a belief, is not a belief in a negation. Moreover, you are confusing the prefix 'a-' with the prefix 'anti-.

See, for instance: http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2838/



If I am without a belief in a god, then that's all one can say about that.

EDIT: I see now that some of this has been covered in posts above.

My reference to the two definitions was;

http://wordweb.info/

.. a dictionary I have running on my pc.

 

[GeorgCantor]

You'd be wrong on both counts.

Agnosticism:
Wrong: not sure about the existence of God
Right: God is unknowable in this life

Atheism:
Wrong: a conviction that God does not exist
Right: a lack of theism

But that's not how most atheists participating in this thread come across. No matter how many times you say that you merely lack belief in gods, your intolerance of other viewpoints(this is visible in the posts so far) indicates that it's not just lack of belief but a belief that god does not exist.

Forgot to mention that you Dave are an exception to what i said above and your stance towards the issue is more inline with the definition of atheism you provided.

 

[nismaratwork]

But that's not how most atheists participating in this thread come across. No matter how many times you say that you merely lack belief in gods, your intolerance of other viewpoints(this is visible in the posts so far) indicates that it's not just lack of belief but a belief that god does not exist.

Forgot to mention that you Dave are an exception to what i said above and your stance towards the issue is more inline with the definition of atheism you provided.

That is an issue of misuse of terms by people, and not the words themselves. Call such people anti-theists if you want, or just "people with faith that there is no divinity". I'm an atheist, and by that I mean it in precisely the way the word is meant to be used, not a contrivance of popular authors or idiots.

Maybe we shouldn't be focusing so much on labels in what should be a substantive discussion?

 

[GeorgCantor]

So many problems within that brief span of text.

1. The sets of assumptions that produce no testable predictions are exactly those that posit the existence of a creator being. Therefore, they do say something about prime causes. It looks like you may have misunderstood my post.

Your set of testable assumptions do not prove anything at all about existence and why there is something instead of nothing. You make an experiment, gather the results and interpret the data the way to suit your philosophical inclination. This is normal, humans are biased, even if they don't realize it all the time.

2. The non-equivalence of different sets of assumptions, is not a premise of my argument, it is a conclusion.

But you use that conclusion as a premise.

3. Sets of assumptions, are not intended to answer questions. That is the role of models constructed upon those assumptions.

Models constructed on assumptions can collapse tomorrow or next Friday or in 2063.

4. You have (as yet) provided no logical argument behind the implicit assertion that because models based on one set of assumptions have no answer for question Q, that there exists an equivalence between all sets of assumptions (and the models built upon them). [If this is not what you assert, please clarify what it is that you do assert.] And question Q need not be one about prime causes either. There are several more questions that are as yet unanswered by modern science. Positing the existence of a supernatural being to "answer" each unanswered question is exactly what mankind likes to do and has done for centuries.

There are NO models that could explain existence. You can make believe any model you like, but it all comes down to a magical creation out of nothing, or through an eternal universe(whatever that means) or a quantum fluctuation. You wanted evicence of Magic - there you have it, right in front of you - there is something instead of nothing.

This is irrelevant, in no small part because I have no desire (nor have I made any attempt) to 'refute' a deity. And consistency is besides the point (since supernatural beings need not be constrained by logical reasoning) . A deity that continuously shapes everyday events can be constructed that is consistent with each separate natural or artificial event in history, yet the construction of such deity serves no explanatory role. Moreover, the entire set of questions Q* regarding the deity itself are now verboten.

My point was that humans don't have to be necessarily naive. We can be less certain of our beliefs and it would make much more sense.

 

[nismaratwork]

There are NO models that could explain existence. You can make believe any model you like, but it all comes down to a magical creation out of nothing, or through an eternal universe(whatever that means) or a quantum fluctuation. You wanted evicence of Magic - there you have it, right in front of you - there is something instead of nothing.

You have reached a conclusion that "something" is magical, while "nothing" is not. Why?

 

[GeorgCantor]

You have reached a conclusion that "something" is magical, while "nothing" is not. Why?

I've never seen the argument that non-existence could also be viewed as magical. Never thought about it that way, i know way too little about non-existence to make a case on it(and whatever i think i know is very likely wrong anyway). Ask me in 100 years(hopefully ).