Undergrad Is Wave-Particle Duality Still Relevant in Modern Physics?

Click For Summary
Wave-particle duality is debated in modern physics, with some arguing it is outdated while others assert it remains relevant in ongoing research. Confusion arises from contradictory information available online, where popular sources often misrepresent the concept. The term is primarily used by experimentalists to engage broader audiences, while theorists tend to view it as imprecise or unnecessary. Access to reputable scientific articles discussing duality can be challenging, complicating understanding further. Overall, the relevance of wave-particle duality continues to be a contentious topic in the physics community.
  • #31
UsableThought said:
@Dadface, looking at the search result you post in #1, as far as I can see, the only hit you got that actually related to "wave particle duality" was the first hit, for a 2014 paper; the other hits are for individual words and not the full phrase. So why not look at that first hit to see what that paper is about?

Go to this page - https://arxiv.org/abs/1501.03713 - and you can download the full PDF via this link: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.03713.pdf

If you (and others in this thread) read the paper, you may be able to discuss whether and how it supports your claim that wave-particle duality, as such, is "still being actively researched."

Thank you very much. I have printed the paper off and have started to plough my way through it. After page two I find it rather heavy going and I think this illustrates a problem other people may have with the concept of duality. Most people who enquire about the subject are likely to not be theoreticians but interested amateurs or students and by doing simple searches they will come across numerous references to wave particle duality, not only in the popular science works but in academic works as well. The net is absolutely awash with the stuff. Some people might want to know what the duality referred to in the academic papers is and that is where they can get stuck.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Simon Phoenix said:
wave-particle duality is still interesting and useful

That is the whole point, I think people want to know actually what is it exactly and not whether it is useful or not. I think there are many such things in physics giving a strong hint that something is a miss.
 
  • #33
Nugatory said:
There is no rigorous definition. When someone who knows what they're talking about uses the term "wave-particle duality", they're generally making an informal reference to some position measurement - a particle is something with a reasonably well-known position. However, the phrase is pretty much meaningless when taken out of context.
My take on what is meant by duality is based on what is observed not on the theories used in an attempt to explain those observations.
 
  • #34
ftr said:
1. I mean QFT clearly says that the objects are "particles" although there is a controversy about whether its position status. I was asking about your understanding regarding that.

(the following has nothing to do with the wave nature of light)

I don't know about this one. What do you mean by particle? For example, take a steel plate with two holes. Mount a machine gun on a flimsy trunnion designed to distribute bullets (our particles) in a gaussian distribution over the holes. Each bullet that passes through a hole is collected and counted. Now bullets that pass through hole 1 didn't pass through hole 2 and visa versa. This fact implies a anti-correlation between the bullet count between those through hole 1 and through hole 2. This correlation is independent of how many machine guns and how randomly the fire in time. Now do the same replacing the machine gun with a single mode optical fiber connected to an led. The holes are separated by a distance that interference (wavy nature) of the light plays no role at the collection point. One will find zero correlation between photons collected, nada, zip, zero. This actually has nothing to do with photons as particles in some sense and everything to do with an led being a classical light source.

One point I'd like to add. What I think QFT actually says is quanta are energy transitions between energy eigenstate of the field in question.
 
Last edited:
  • #35
Paul Colby said:
photons collect
But that doesn't say anything about whether the photon is a particle or a some lump or an extended object throughout the universe but an effect of it seen at that place.
 
  • #36
ftr said:
But that doesn't say anything about whether the photon is a particle or a some lump or an extended object throughout the universe but an effect of it seen at that place.

It very much says photons aren't classical particles ever.
 
  • #37
ftr said:
I think people want to know actually what is it exactly

It's a view of nature forced upon us when we adopt a particular way of thinking. It's wholly unnecessary and can easily be circumvented by not thinking of quantum objects as 'waves' or 'particles'.

If you really insist on thinking of these quantum hoojamaflips as either a wave or a particle then you're forced into accepting that sometimes they're going to behave as if they were more like a wave and sometimes they're going to behave as if they were more like a particle - depends on what you're doing to them. Sometimes they can partially display characteristics of both. The notions of 'wave' and 'particle' are borrowed from a classical world view in order to help us construct an intuitive picture. The picture we get from doing this is not wholly consistent. Nothing wrong with quantum theory - just lots of things wrong with trying to interpret it in a classical fashion.
 
  • Like
Likes bhobba, LunaFly and PeroK
  • #38
  • Like
Likes Demystifier
  • #39
Paul Colby said:
It very much says photons aren't classical particles ever.

roger that.:biggrin:
 
  • #40
Simon Phoenix said:
It's a view of nature forced upon us when we adopt a particular way of thinking. It's wholly unnecessary and can easily be circumvented by not thinking of quantum objects as 'waves' or 'particles'.

If you really insist on thinking of these quantum hoojamaflips as either a wave or a particle then you're forced into accepting that sometimes they're going to behave as if they were more like a wave and sometimes they're going to behave as if they were more like a particle - depends on what you're doing to them. Sometimes they can partially display characteristics of both. The notions of 'wave' and 'particle' are borrowed from a classical world view in order to help us construct an intuitive picture. The picture we get from doing this is not wholly consistent. Nothing wrong with quantum theory - just lots of things wrong with trying to interpret it in a classical fashion.

I think this illustrates another problem including one of terminology. For example I think a majority of people refer to an electron as a particle but should they refer to it instead as a quantum particle or go even deeper and refer to it as an excitation of an underlying field? Turtles come to mind. But when we look at the observable properties we see that electrons seem to have some features of classical particles such as mass and charge.
I think what we consider electrons to be depends on the context in which we use them. In some situations they seem to display some properties of particles and in other situations they seem to display some properties of waves, a fact that is used successfully in practical applications such as electron microscopes. That's what I think duality is about.
 
  • #41
Simon Phoenix said:
It's a view of nature forced upon us when we adopt a particular way of thinking. It's wholly unnecessary and can easily be circumvented by not thinking of quantum objects as 'waves' or 'particles'.

If you really insist on thinking of these quantum hoojamaflips as either a wave or a particle then you're forced into accepting that sometimes they're going to behave as if they were more like a wave and sometimes they're going to behave as if they were more like a particle - depends on what you're doing to them. Sometimes they can partially display characteristics of both. The notions of 'wave' and 'particle' are borrowed from a classical world view in order to help us construct an intuitive picture. The picture we get from doing this is not wholly consistent. Nothing wrong with quantum theory - just lots of things wrong with trying to interpret it in a classical fashion.

I don't think that generally people trying to fit classical picture to the small realm, the problem in QM or GR is that the theories do not give clear Mechanism responsible for the processes.

Now let's suppose some hypothetical theory explains mechanism in a clear mathematical terms-which many interpretations try do as an added baggage and fail miserably- like the following model. Suppose two particles entangled are represented by end of lines that can be trillion of light years long. Now suppose that the line rotates about its middle, i.e. if one end goes up the other end goes down, so IF we interpret that as spin relation then EPR becomes very trivial (of course, assuming this model holds and consistent for other processes). Another hypothetical model I gave in other threads is assume the relation between spin in entangled particles is a triangle which is also can stretches light years, so if you know one angle at one end then you know the sum at the other end(assuming euclidean) . In both cases there is nothing classical about them, but the model is clear and makes sense. That is the important element(making sense) which is missing in QM and GR which one day I hope can be flushed out.:smile::smile::smile:
 
Last edited:
  • #42
Dadface said:
classical particles such as mass and charge.

But when it comes to QFT both concepts become a bit unclassical with vacumm polorization,infinities, renormalization and all that.
 
  • #43
Dadface said:
My take on what is meant by duality is based on what is observed not on the theories used in an attempt to explain those observations.
But where do you, in your opinion, observe wave-particle duality? I've never observed something like it ever!
 
  • #44
vanhees71 said:
But where do you, in your opinion, observe wave-particle duality? I've never observed something like it ever!

In the time independent description of the hydrogen atom.
 
  • #45
ftr said:
the problem in QM or GR is that the theories do not give clear Mechanism responsible for the processes.

Sure they do. It's just not a 'mechanism' that satisfies your notion of what a 'mechanism' ought to be.
 
  • Like
Likes Nugatory, weirdoguy and vanhees71
  • #46
ftr said:
In the time independent description of the hydrogen atom.
This is not an observation but a calculation. Where concretely do you see anything like wave-particle duality there?
 
  • Like
Likes QuantumQuest
  • #47
ftr said:
But when it comes to QFT both concepts become a bit unclassical with vacumm polorization,infinities, renormalization and all that.

I agree but I have been trying to point out that my emphasis is on observations. For example if you look up fundamental data from NIST you will see that the electron mass is measured to an incredibly high degree of accuracy.
 
  • #48
vanhees71 said:
But where do you, in your opinion, observe wave-particle duality? I've never observed something like it ever!
I gave examples of that in post fourty. As I have been saying my take on duality is about observations, not the theories used in an attempt to explain those observations. I accept that the original theories used have been replaced by better theories and these in turn may be replaced by even better theories and so on ad nauseum. But whatever the theory is it is informed by observations and to be successful it must conform to observations. Observations will of course be replaced by better observations and so on, but in the meantime the theories have to conform to the observations currently available.
 
  • #49
ftr said:
That is the important element(making sense) which is missing in QM and GR

QM and GR both make perfect sens if you understand them (and their limitations) properly.
 
  • #50
In an attempt to get people to read Bohr, I offer the following remarks. I hinted in my previous post that there is a deceptive situation in physics today where people are always talking about the "Copenhagen interpretation" even though what they say has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is quite similar to a hypothetical situation where people believe that Minkowski discovered special relativity because he found t2 - x2, and they ignore Einstein's conceptual insights. It is true that the formalism of quantum theory was discovered by Heisenberg, Dirac etc. but it was really Niels Bohr who understood it conceptually. Even Heisenberg's original paper on the uncertainty relations has a note at the end where he says that his explanation of the uncertainty relation is wrong, and Bohr has explained to him the correct way to look at it.

Heisenberg said:
After the conclusion of the foregoing paper, more recent investigations of Bohr have lead to an essential deepening of the analysis attempted in this work. Bohr has brought to my attention that I have overlooked several essential points. The uncertainty in our observations does not arise exclusively from the occurrence of discontinuities, but is tied directly to the demand that we ascribe equal validity to the different experiments which show up in the wave theory on the one and and the corpuscular theory on the other hand
 
  • #51
Simon Phoenix said:
Sure they do. It's just not a 'mechanism' that satisfies your notion of what a 'mechanism' ought to be.

While it true that the wavefunction sort of give the "mathematical" mechanism, but I did emphasize the word clear, otherwise PF would not have been the fun place that it is.:smile:
 
  • #53
Ddddx said:
In an attempt to get people to read Bohr, I offer the following remarks. I hinted in my previous post that there is a deceptive situation in physics today where people are always talking about the "Copenhagen interpretation" even though what they say has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is quite similar to a hypothetical situation where people believe that Minkowski discovered special relativity because he found t2 - x2, and they ignore Einstein's conceptual insights. It is true that the formalism of quantum theory was discovered by Heisenberg, Dirac etc. but it was really Niels Bohr who understood it conceptually. Even Heisenberg's original paper on the uncertainty relations has a note at the end where he says that his explanation of the uncertainty relation is wrong, and Bohr has explained to him the correct way to look at it.
Indeed, without Bohr the Copenhagen interpretation would be even more confusing than it is with him, but if you want to understand quantum theory, it's not good advice to read Bohr or Heisenberg. The most clear writer of the founding fathers in my opinion is Dirac; then Pauli and Born. Bohr and Heisenberg are too much into philosophy rather than sticking to the "hard facts" of physics.
 
  • #54
vanhees71 said:
concretely

This implies a classical world which we insist that QM does not follow. Hence, we believe in the almighty QM realm which the solution to the equations imply and we have no direct access to.
 
  • #55
Dadface said:
I have been trying to point out that my emphasis is on observations. For example if you look up fundamental data from NIST you will see that the electron mass is measured to an incredibly high degree of accuracy.

I myself know nothing at all about quantum theory; and very, very little about classical mechanics; etc. But I do know something about the nature of argument. So a couple of comments on that basis:

Observation vs. theory. It seems to me a mistake to speak of the observation of particles (e.g. the electron, as has been mentioned) as somehow being so separate from quantum theory that the ability to make certain kinds of observations & measurements places the theory in jeopardy. Speech of this sort seems to imply that we are able to observe electrons with our naked senses, thus moving our observations into the realm of hard reality vs. soft theory. From what I read, this isn't the case at all: we can only detect these particles via instrumentation - e.g. cloud chambers, newer devices such as used in KATRIN, etc. Even without knowing a thing about something like the KATRIN experiment, I am willing to bet there is a long history of mathematical modeling to support detection with these devices. A cloud chamber is not quite the same thing as a pair of binoculars; to know what you are looking at requires more than just naked eyesight. So it is not the case that observation in physics is utterly separate from theory.

Observation leading to theory. To take this an obvious step further, isn't it the case that in the development of quantum theory (as throughout the history of physics and other hard sciences), experimental observation & theory have been interwoven from very early on, rather than being seen as separate and opposed? I apologize for the primitiveness of my sources, but even a glance at Wikipedia's article on the positron would suggest this: Dirac predicted an "anti-electron" and cloud-chamber observations in the late 1920s and early 1930s led to the detection of what was then called the positron.

The above points lead me to wonder what the arguments in this thread are really about. For example this statement -
ftr said:
This implies a classical world which we insist that QM does not follow. Hence, we believe in the almighty QM realm which the solution to the equations imply and we have no direct access to.
- is puzzling. What does "direct access" mean here? What does it mean to say that quantum theory doesn't provide a "mechanism" that "makes sense"? For that matter, getting back to the OP's original complaint, what is really at issue when he notes that the Internet yields hits from various sources which speak of "wave particle duality", and then contends that explanations that this is a dated phrase are not satisfactory?

In my opinion a couple of things are going on:

1) First, in my opinion @Simon Phoenix is dead on target when he notes that yearning for things to "make sense" and have a "mechanism" reflect our desire for "intuitive pictures" of how reality operates. I think this yearning is made especially powerful if (a) we are daunted by high levels of abstraction, and (b) we ourselves don't entirely understand the theories we are questioning.

2) There is a growing tendency in the era of Google to assume that we can know things through Googling without having to do the work of understanding. So if we get a smattering of Google hits that dredge up confusing or contradictory information, we then assume that this dredged-up information is enough for us to be skeptical about what the experts tell us about a particular theory or model - in this case quantum theory - without our having done the hard, lengthy work of studying that model enough to understand it. If we find ourselves struggling with basic papers in the field, then that might be considered a clue: we are not ready to question that field ourselves!

I am familiar with my point #2 from a different context, which I will offer up as an example of what I mean. About 8 or 9 years ago, I was very interested in a kind of behavioral psychology known as relational frame theory, or RFT, which purports to explain verbal behavior in humans. RFT is not only extremely technical, but it happens to be built on top of a previous model known as operant behavior, which is part of B.F. Skinner's radical behaviorism. I wanted to learn RFT, so I went through an enormous amount of journal articles and books - not only on the development of RFT, but on alternate theories which had been proposed for verbal behavior, but which failed to be born out by experiment as RFT was born out.

Because this was a highly abstruse theory, with many departures from "folk psychology" or "common sense," I had many questions as I read along. From an expert's point of view, these questions were naive; but I still had to ask them in order to gain traction on the subject. I listed them, and then used this list to help guide my reading. Once I felt I had got the "right answer" to each question per the theory, I then queried experts in the field (I knew a lot of the researchers already from early discussions) to make sure my understanding was correct. What I did NOT do was suppose that in my naiveté, I had somehow stumbled across questions that the experts themselves, in developing RFT, had failed to consider.

So to me, the question is, what is the goal of asking a naïve question about a particular theory, whether in psychology or physics? Is it to show that we, in our naiveté, are showing that the experts have it all wrong? Or are we asking as an aid to doing the hard work of studying & learning something new and difficult, so that we may finally understand the theory as it is actually proposed? In this case, I think it is useful for a student to ask something like, "Help me understand why wave particle duality is no longer a problem in QT" or some such; but not so useful for a student to assert that "The availability of 'wave particle duality' as a search term on the Internet, with lots of hits that I haven't really sorted out, means that somehow QT must be inadequate."

The above may sound offensive and if so I apologize; I don't mean to be that way. But it does seem to be that in this thread, we have a division between those who understand a particular theory and its historical development, and are patiently trying to explain these things; and those who for one reason or another are bent on pursuing their own highly personal objections to the theory. One objection is that the Internet coughs up results that to a naïve reader seem important grounds for skepticism; the other is to abstraction itself as being unsatisfactory for explaining a reality that is in any case quite distant from any mental picture we might draw of it - see my note above on "observation vs. theory."

Regarding the first of these objections - the role of the Internet in coughing up seemingly important search results - I would like to quote from a book I have been reading, The Death of Expertise, 2017 from Oxford U. Press; the author is Tom Nichols, who happens himself to be an expert on foreign policy & international security. The book is about the general decay of trust in U.S. society in experts and expertise; Nichols has a chapter specifically on the role of the Internet in this loss of trust, and this excerpt is from that chapter:

Plugging words into a browser window isn't research; it's asking questions of programmable machines that themselves cannot actually understand human beings. Actual research is hard, and for people raised in an environment of constant electronic stimulation, it's also boring. Research requires the ability to find authentic information, summarize it, analyze it, write it up, and present it to other people. It is not just the province of scientists and scholars, but a basic set of skills a high school education should teach every graduate . . .

In some ways, the convenience of the Internet is a tremendous boon, but mostly for people already trained in research and who have some idea of what they're looking for. It's much easier to subscribe to the electronic version of, say, Foreign Affairs or International Security than it is to decamp to the library or impatiently check an office mailbox. This is no help, unfortunately, for a student or an untrained layperson who has never been taught how to judge the provenance of information or the reputability of a writer.​

@Dadface, let me finish by saying this: Why not turn your question about "wave particle duality" into a research project? You would have to do a lot of research - lots of long slow difficult reading - but this way, you would get a real grasp on the subject. You could make a note of your questions, then set out to find answers to those questions in the literature. This is how I approached relational frame theory. If I had merely stuck to asking my naïve questions flat-out, with no attempt at study and research, I might have gotten answers from experts on a forum like this; but I couldn't have really understood those answers and so my skepticism would remain. And worst of all I would never really come to understand or learn anything new; I would be stuck within my own self-imposed limits.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Dadface and Simon Phoenix
  • #56
UsableThought said:
What I did NOT do was suppose that in my naiveté, I had somehow stumbled across questions that the experts themselves, in developing RFT, had failed to consider.

Quite - and it's true even for most 'experts' too - or at least it ought to be :wideeyed:

In a charitable light I might be considered to have developed some expertise in QM and quantum optics, but I'm hardly in the same class as a Zeilinger or a Zurek, let alone a Feynman or a Dirac! That's not to say these 'superstars' are always right, but it would, I think, be astonishing if they turned out to be wrong for entirely trivial reasons. I'd be willing to bet that these kinds of folk, when they do get it 'wrong', get things wrong for really interesting reasons most of the time. We could say that Einstein (and Podolsky and Rosen) got it 'wrong' in their original EPR paper - but, heck, they were wrong for one of the most interesting reasons possible :cool:

The internet is a tool - and like all tools must be used judiciously. It's easy, perhaps, for someone who hasn't put in the kind of careful study required, to get bamboozled by techno-speak. I mean if I wrote something like "the diffeomorphic character of the inverse Waffle transformation means that the compact sub-group of the affine connection is positive definite on the semi-finite mapping of Killjoy vectors to the parallelized sphere of adjoint Blochhead transformations", then to a casual (non-technical) observer it might seem that I know what I'm talking about when, in truth, it's just outrageous nonsense - techno word salad. The internet is full of such egregious drivel. It's also full of some wonderful and brilliant stuff - the trick is in knowing the difference.

I've been on a couple of other forums and blogs over the years where I have been frankly astonished by the sheer number of crackpots who proudly proclaim, in really quite authoritative terms, that physics went wrong with Einstein (SR and GR) and even more wrong with QM. These maroons then usually go on to expound their own completely bonkers 'theory of everything' which mostly consists of techno word salad.

The problem is that an internet search will throw up a fair number of hits ranging from the brilliant and expert, through the mostly correct but slightly misleading or not too incorrect, right through to the bat guano insane. A casual observer would then get the impression that 'physics' is in some kind of turmoil with nobody really having a clue what's going on.

Although the moderation on these forums borders on the over-enthusiastic at times - I think we should be grateful that we have a forum that is mercifully free from the hordes of marauding loons out there; a forum where some truly expert and knowledgeable people share their time freely to enlighten us all.
 
  • Like
Likes Dadface and UsableThought
  • #57
UsableThought said:
I myself know nothing at all about quantum theory; and very, very little about classical mechanics; etc. But I do know something about the nature of argument. So a couple of comments on that basis:

Observation vs. theory. It seems to me a mistake to speak of the observation of particles (e.g. the electron, as has been mentioned) as somehow being so separate from quantum theory that the ability to make certain kinds of observations & measurements places the theory in jeopardy. Speech of this sort seems to imply that we are able to observe electrons with our naked senses, thus moving our observations into the realm of hard reality vs. soft theory. From what I read, this isn't the case at all: we can only detect these particles via instrumentation - e.g. cloud chambers, newer devices such as used in KATRIN, etc. Even without knowing a thing about something like the KATRIN experiment, I am willing to bet there is a long history of mathematical modeling to support detection with these devices. A cloud chamber is not quite the same thing as a pair of binoculars; to know what you are looking at requires more than just naked eyesight. So it is not the case that observation in physics is utterly separate from theory.

Observation leading to theory. To take this an obvious step further, isn't it the case that in the development of quantum theory (as throughout the history of physics and other hard sciences), experimental observation & theory have been interwoven from very early on, rather than being seen as separate and opposed? I apologize for the primitiveness of my sources, but even a glance at Wikipedia's article on the positron would suggest this: Dirac predicted an "anti-electron" and cloud-chamber observations in the late 1920s and early 1930s led to the detection of what was then called the positron.

The above points lead me to wonder what the arguments in this thread are really about. For example this statement -

- is puzzling. What does "direct access" mean here? What does it mean to say that quantum theory doesn't provide a "mechanism" that "makes sense"? For that matter, getting back to the OP's original complaint, what is really at issue when he notes that the Internet yields hits from various sources which speak of "wave particle duality", and then contends that explanations that this is a dated phrase are not satisfactory?

In my opinion a couple of things are going on:

1) First, in my opinion @Simon Phoenix is dead on target when he notes that yearning for things to "make sense" and have a "mechanism" reflect our desire for "intuitive pictures" of how reality operates. I think this yearning is made especially powerful if (a) we are daunted by high levels of abstraction, and (b) we ourselves don't entirely understand the theories we are questioning.

2) There is a growing tendency in the era of Google to assume that we can know things through Googling without having to do the work of understanding. So if we get a smattering of Google hits that dredge up confusing or contradictory information, we then assume that this dredged-up information is enough for us to be skeptical about what the experts tell us about a particular theory or model - in this case quantum theory - without our having done the hard, lengthy work of studying that model enough to understand it. If we find ourselves struggling with basic papers in the field, then that might be considered a clue: we are not ready to question that field ourselves!

I am familiar with my point #2 from a different context, which I will offer up as an example of what I mean. About 8 or 9 years ago, I was very interested in a kind of behavioral psychology known as relational frame theory, or RFT, which purports to explain verbal behavior in humans. RFT is not only extremely technical, but it happens to be built on top of a previous model known as operant behavior, which is part of B.F. Skinner's radical behaviorism. I wanted to learn RFT, so I went through an enormous amount of journal articles and books - not only on the development of RFT, but on alternate theories which had been proposed for verbal behavior, but which failed to be born out by experiment as RFT was born out.

Because this was a highly abstruse theory, with many departures from "folk psychology" or "common sense," I had many questions as I read along. From an expert's point of view, these questions were naive; but I still had to ask them in order to gain traction on the subject. I listed them, and then used this list to help guide my reading. Once I felt I had got the "right answer" to each question per the theory, I then queried experts in the field (I knew a lot of the researchers already from early discussions) to make sure my understanding was correct. What I did NOT do was suppose that in my naiveté, I had somehow stumbled across questions that the experts themselves, in developing RFT, had failed to consider.

So to me, the question is, what is the goal of asking a naïve question about a particular theory, whether in psychology or physics? Is it to show that we, in our naiveté, are showing that the experts have it all wrong? Or are we asking as an aid to doing the hard work of studying & learning something new and difficult, so that we may finally understand the theory as it is actually proposed? In this case, I think it is useful for a student to ask something like, "Help me understand why wave particle duality is no longer a problem in QT" or some such; but not so useful for a student to assert that "The availability of 'wave particle duality' as a search term on the Internet, with lots of hits that I haven't really sorted out, means that somehow QT must be inadequate."

The above may sound offensive and if so I apologize; I don't mean to be that way. But it does seem to be that in this thread, we have a division between those who understand a particular theory and its historical development, and are patiently trying to explain these things; and those who for one reason or another are bent on pursuing their own highly personal objections to the theory. One objection is that the Internet coughs up results that to a naïve reader seem important grounds for skepticism; the other is to abstraction itself as being unsatisfactory for explaining a reality that is in any case quite distant from any mental picture we might draw of it - see my note above on "observation vs. theory."

Regarding the first of these objections - the role of the Internet in coughing up seemingly important search results - I would like to quote from a book I have been reading, The Death of Expertise, 2017 from Oxford U. Press; the author is Tom Nichols, who happens himself to be an expert on foreign policy & international security. The book is about the general decay of trust in U.S. society in experts and expertise; Nichols has a chapter specifically on the role of the Internet in this loss of trust, and this excerpt is from that chapter:

Plugging words into a browser window isn't research; it's asking questions of programmable machines that themselves cannot actually understand human beings. Actual research is hard, and for people raised in an environment of constant electronic stimulation, it's also boring. Research requires the ability to find authentic information, summarize it, analyze it, write it up, and present it to other people. It is not just the province of scientists and scholars, but a basic set of skills a high school education should teach every graduate . . .

In some ways, the convenience of the Internet is a tremendous boon, but mostly for people already trained in research and who have some idea of what they're looking for. It's much easier to subscribe to the electronic version of, say, Foreign Affairs or International Security than it is to decamp to the library or impatiently check an office mailbox. This is no help, unfortunately, for a student or an untrained layperson who has never been taught how to judge the provenance of information or the reputability of a writer.​

@Dadface, let me finish by saying this: Why not turn your question about "wave particle duality" into a research project? You would have to do a lot of research - lots of long slow difficult reading - but this way, you would get a real grasp on the subject. You could make a note of your questions, then set out to find answers to those questions in the literature. This is how I approached relational frame theory. If I had merely stuck to asking my naïve questions flat-out, with no attempt at study and research, I might have gotten answers from experts on a forum like this; but I couldn't have really understood those answers and so my skepticism would remain. And worst of all I would never really come to understand or learn anything new; I would be stuck within my own self-imposed limits.

Thank you for your response usable thought. It is rather lengthy and I will need to go through it a few times. I have been stressing that observation is key to this topic and indeed to every other area of physics. It is observation that informs and gives credence to theory, not the other way round. In the early days of QM De Broglie postulated that atomic size particles can have a demonstrable wave nature. At approximately the same time and in a different part of the world Davison and Germer, who were not aware of De Broglies work, carried out an experiment with an electron tube which can be interpreted as electrons displaying wavelike properties. Since then the theory has moved on but the basic observations remain.
In a nutshell theory is about interpreting observations and as far as wave particle duality is concerned I think the interpretations that have been made are flawed. To me there seems to be something very simple basic and obvious that has been overlooked. I don't believe in the concept of duality as it has been framed and that's why I have been making enquiries here as to why the concept can appear to be alive and kicking.
I
 
  • #58
ftr said:
1. I mean QFT clearly says that the objects are "particles" although there is a controversy about whether its position status. I was asking about your understanding regarding that.
See my https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609163
Sec. 8 (especially 8.3) and Sec. 9 (especially 9.7).

ftr said:
2.quote from your paper

"Typically, the wave attains such a localized-particle shape through..."
so which one is it "localized-particle shape" or the though ...
In that sense, Bohmian particle position is a Dirac delta, but not of Eq. (1).
 
  • #59
ftr said:
roger that.:biggrin:

So, if one concedes that "particle" doesn't refer to "classical particle" then to what does it refer? The answer in QM is to irreps of the Poincare group. This leads one to the full QFT formalism and wave-particle vanishes as a poorly defined concept in a puff of formalism. The example I gave in #34 isn't a random example. I actually did the experiment to test for correlation. I expected to find correlation based on a completely specious essentially classical intuition of the photon which is completely wrong (and frankly stupid). In my case trying to apply an incomplete picture leads to a false conclusion. Subsequent reading of the fine print (and there is a great deal of fine print) in Mandel and Wolf makes the issue very clear. Many of the things (especially statistical things) people view as properties allegedly possessed by photons are actually properties of photon sources. Moral of the story is learn the formalism and it's implications to actual experiments.
 
  • #60
vanhees71 said:
It's really annoying that particularly in Nature, which is a journal with a very high reputation, still admits the use of such sloppy language, but you can't help it. If I'd have been the referee, I had tried to fight against it. I've not yet reviewed articles for Nature, but for other journals it works.

Again, there's no need for wave-particle duality anymore since 1926, and one shouldn't use the phrase anymore. I think we have discussed that of course one can describe everything said in the first link in the search results in #1

http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v10/n4/full/nphys2931.htm

in terms of modern QED without any reference to a classical-particle picture. There's no other quantum which is less adequate described as a classical particle than the photon. It doesn't even admit to define a position observable etc. etc. We have discussed this indeed endlessly in this forum.
Sorry, I don't understand. Why do you say a photon does not have a position observable?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
7K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
3K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
8K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K