It's a vicious circle.Why do people commit mass shootings?

[drankin]

Why is that unfathomable? It would be very easy to discharge the gun accidentally if it has a light trigger pull. There have been cases of inexperienced shooters injuring themselves because they kept their finger on the trigger while carrying or holstering the gun.

She also accidently kept it pointed at her brother. To control a semi-auto shotgun and maintain a target is hard enough.

 

[Dr Transport]

As a graduate of UAH, this is just another incidence of the universities poor judgment in hiring faculty members, not 6 months ago the former Physics department chair was convicted of murdering his wife.

http://blog.al.com/live/2009/10/professor_uah_murder.html

These were the worst, but other poor decisions (my opinion) have been made in other cases regarding tenure etc...

 

[Borek]

I wonder if this particular decision about tenure was right or not. It all depends on the point of view - it was right, you don't want someone like that on campus, it was wrong, you don't want shooting on campus.

 

[elect_eng]

I wonder if this particular decision about tenure was right or not. It all depends on the point of view - it was right, you don't want someone like that on campus, it was wrong, you don't want shooting on campus.

Interesting thought. Let's give all psychopaths tenure postions at Universities. Maybe. ... It's cheaper than jail, and perhaps torturing students is enough of a thrill to keep them from killing people.

Hmmm, I like it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

and 19 year old girls will act erratically after accidentally shooting a relative.

The bizarre implication here is that 19 year old girls accidentally shoot their relatives pretty frequently.

A quick google search shows dozens of accidental shootings in just the past month, many of them involving teenagers. It is not unusual at all.

You specified 19 year old girls. Link me to all the accidental shootings of relatives by 19 year old girls in the United States in the past month. Exclude anything still under investigation.

Do it for the whole past year if you like. Then get me a reliable estimate of how many 19 year old girls there were in the United States at any given time in the last year. The percentage of 19 year old girls who accidentally shot relatives will be so tiny that the statement "It's not at all unusual for a 19 year old girl to accidentally shoot a relative" will be seen to be bogus. You didn't dispute that's what you were implying, so I guess you want to stand by that implication.

 

[ideasrule]

Do we have confirmation that the shotgun was fired 3 times?

 

[zoobyshoe]

She also accidently kept it pointed at her brother. To control a semi-auto shotgun and maintain a target is hard enough.

You need to read the story carefully and keep strict track of what everyone said:

She said she got the gun and loaded shells into it, but was unable to get them out. Anderson said that while she was attempting to unload the weapon on her bed, it went off. She then took it downstairs to ask for help in unloading it. She asked her brother, she said, and he told her to point the gun up instead of carrying it beside her leg. Her brother was walking across the kitchen between her and her mother, she said. She started to raise the gun, and "someone said something to her," she recalled in the report. She turned and the gun went off.

That's from the big chunk of news story I quoted in post #87

 

[Evo]

This seems to confirm the 3 shots.

But current Braintree police Chief Paul Frazier questions how the investigation was handled. Frazier said Amy Bishop also fired once into a wall before hitting her brother, then fired a third time into the ceiling.

An auto mechanic who worked at a dealership near Bishop's home in 1986 told The Boston Globe that Bishop ran in after shooting her brother, waved a gun and demanded a getaway car.

I'm no gun expert, but I would assume that she'd have to be holding that gun with at least one finger on the trigger in order for her to "accidently" fire it. So, you have a person that is supposedly afraid of guns, then "accidently" shoots it once, yet continues to carry the gun with her finger on the trigger while she's supposedly taking it to ask her mother how to unload it? Wouldn't the first reaction be to keep your hand away from the trigger? Just doesn't sound right.

Here's the latest on the shooting.

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. – A professor who survived a deadly university shooting rampage said the colleague charged in the attack methodically shot her victims in the head until the gun apparently jammed and she was pushed out of the room.

Ng said the meeting had been going on for about half an hour when Amy Bishop "got up suddenly, took out a gun and started shooting at each one of us. She started with the one closest to her and went down the row shooting her targets in the head."

Ng, the professor who survived, said all six of those shot were on one side of an oval table.

"The remaining 5 including myself were on the other side of the table (and) immediately dropped to the floor," he wrote.

Ng told the AP the shooting stopped almost as soon as it started. He said the gun seemed to jam and he and others rushed Bishop out of the room and then barricaded the door shut with a table.

Ng said the charge was led by Debra Moriarity, a professor of biochemistry, after Bishop aimed the gun at her and attempted to fire. When the gun didn't shoot, Moriarity pushed her way to Bishop, urged her to stop, and then helped force her out the door.

"Moriarity was probably the one that saved our lives. She was the one that initiated the rush," he told the AP. "It took a lot of guts to just go up to her."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_re_us/us_ala_university_shooting

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

On the bright side, there should be increased enrollment in physics programs in the future.

 

[Borek]

The percentage of 19 year old girls who accidentally shot relatives will be so tiny that the statement "It's not at all unusual for a 19 year old girl to accidentally shoot a relative" will be seen to be bogus.

I think you are trying to address something different then Brain_C stated:

19 year old girls will act erratically after accidentally shooting a relative. This stuff might sound suspicious to CSI wannabees, but it's nothing out of the ordinary in the real world of law enforcement.

As I understand it, he was not referring to the general population, but to the population of people that police has to deal with. That's not the same situation.

Note: I am not stating you are wrong or he is wrong, I just think you don't talk the same case.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

When her gun jammed they forced her out the door? I probably would have killed her with my bare hands.

 

[edpell]

When her gun jammed they forced her out the door? I probably would have killed her with my bare hands.

It is not clear where the gun was at the point that they pushed her out of the room. I for myself would not want to wrestle with a person with a gun. I would be happy to push them out the door and barricade the door.

 

[Evo]

It is not clear where the gun was at the point that they pushed her out of the room. I for myself would not want to wrestle with a person with a gun. I would be happy to push them out the door and barricade the door.

The gun was in her hand

Ng said the charge was led by Debra Moriarity, a professor of biochemistry, after Bishop aimed the gun at her and attempted to fire. When the gun didn't shoot, Moriarity pushed her way to Bishop, urged her to stop, and then helped force her out the door.

 

[rootX]

So, they forced her out of the door along with her gun before the shooting occurred (and called 911)? In most cases I believe people try to subdue the person before anything else.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It is not clear where the gun was at the point that they pushed her out of the room. I for myself would not want to wrestle with a person with a gun. I would be happy to push them out the door and barricade the door.

...so that she could possibly continue on her rampage? That aside, I don't know if I could control my emotions at that point. My life has been threatened a few times. Once I was held at gunpoint [actually, I was kidnapped at gunpoint]. When a person's life is threatened, the animal instincts often emerge.

 

[Astronuc]

So, they forced her out of the door along with her gun before the shooting occurred (and called 911)?

She shot 3 colleagues. She attempted to shoot a 4th, but the gun jammed/misfired. The 4th colleagues (and apparently others) wrestled her out the door.

These are academics - and I would doubt they know how to react under a deadly fire situation - other than duck and cover.

 

[edpell]

If I were the insurance company for the University I would be filing a lawsuit against the Braintree Mass. police department for criminal negligence. Seeking to have them pay the payouts due to the shootings.

 

[edpell]

...so that she could possibly continue on her rampage? .

I would not wrestle a person with a gun even a jammed gun. Yes she might kill others on the other side of the door. Eventually she will face people who have guns and she will be stopped.

If I had a gun I would not push a person with a jammed gun out a door I would shoot them.

 

[Evo]

She shot 3 colleagues. She attempted to shoot a 4th, but the gun jammed/misfired. The 4th colleagues (and apparently others) wrestled her out the door.

Actually she shot 6 people before the gun jammed, or ran out of bullets. Three dead, 2 in the hospital in critical condition and one has been released from the hospital.

 

[Proton Soup]

...so that she could possibly continue on her rampage? That aside, I don't know if I could control my emotions at that point. My life has been threatened a few times. Once I was held at gunpoint [actually, I was kidnapped at gunpoint]. When a person's life is threatened, the animal instincts often emerge.

oh, their animal instincts kicked in, alright. they were complete sheep. until one became emboldened, and then they went into a herd mentality.

 

[edpell]

There are two animal instincts 1) fight 2) flight. If you are defending genetically related kin 1 might make sense. If you are defending people who are not genetically related to you well 2 makes more sense.

But if you wish to save me Ivan I will gladly accept the help.

 

[Proton Soup]

i think it is fight/flight/fright actually, but yeah.

 

[Borek]

No sex between insticts? Damn, I knew there is something wrong with me.

 

[cronxeh]

If I were the insurance company for the University I would be filing a lawsuit against the Braintree Mass. police department for criminal negligence. Seeking to have them pay the payouts due to the shootings.

Are you aware that the police have NO constitutional or otherwise legal responsibility to actually protect individual lives?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are two animal instincts 1) fight 2) flight. If you are defending genetically related kin 1 might make sense. If you are defending people who are not genetically related to you well 2 makes more sense.

But if you wish to save me Ivan I will gladly accept the help.

I wasn't defending anything. You were.

Do you really want to make this personal? You might want to rethink that position.

 

[edpell]

Are you aware that the police have NO constitutional or otherwise legal responsibility to actually protect individual lives?

But they do have an obligation to investigate shootings that result in death. That is the brothers death.

 

[Borek]

But they do have an obligation to investigate shootings that result in death. That is the brothers death.

And they did - conclusion was that it was an accident.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As a graduate of UAH, this is just another incidence of the universities poor judgment in hiring faculty members, not 6 months ago the former Physics department chair was convicted of murdering his wife.

http://blog.al.com/live/2009/10/professor_uah_murder.html

These were the worst, but other poor decisions (my opinion) have been made in other cases regarding tenure etc...

I'm tempted to say there must be something in the water. Rare enough to encounter one murderous professor anywhere, but to have two associated with the same institution?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here's a new piece of information. Apparently dozens of her students had signed a petition of complaint about her strange teaching style and had presented it to the Bio department chairman, who blew it off. Unfortunately, he became one of her victims.

Bishop's students said they first wrote a letter to biology department chairman Gopi K. Podila — one of the victims of Friday's shooting — then met with him and finally submitted a petition that dozens of them had signed.

"Podila just sort of blew us off," said Phillips, who was among a group of five students who met with him in fall 2008 or early 2009 to air their concerns.

Another thing that has emerged is that she physically assaulted a woman in a restaurant in '02:

In 2002, Bishop was charged with assault, battery and disorderly conduct after a tirade at the International House of Pancakes in Peabody, Mass. Peabody police Capt. Dennis Bonaiuto said Bishop became incensed when she found out another woman had received the restaurant's last booster seat. Bishop hit the woman while shouting, "I am Dr. Amy Bishop," according to the police report.

"The whole incident was just stupid," Bishop's husband, James Anderson, said Wednesday.

Asked if he was referring to his wife's actions, he said: "Everything."

"It was way overblown," he said. "Someone trying to make something out of nothing."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100217/ap_on_re_us/us_ala_university_shooting_136;_ylt=A2KIKvNsRXxLNP0ARCZH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2OHNjNzVxBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1yLWItbGVmdARzbGsDZXYtc3R1ZGVudHNj

 

[PhaseShifter]

She shot 3 colleagues. She attempted to shoot a 4th, but the gun jammed/misfired. The 4th colleagues (and apparently others) wrestled her out the door.

She shot six people, but three of them survived (so far...two are still in critical condition).

Apparently she's also been arrested for assault in the past, as well.

 

[physics girl phd]

Here's a new piece of information. Apparently dozens of her students had signed a petition of complaint about her strange teaching style and had presented it to the Bio department chairman, who blew it off. Unfortunately, he became one of her victims.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=392617"... though that doesn't mean much.

 

[zoobyshoe]

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=392617"... though that doesn't mean much.

Yeah, cronxeh linked to that earlier. Out of 34 comments 20 were "good", 5 were "average", and 9 were "poor".

According to the news story, though, "dozens" (which, if it's accurate, has to mean at least 24, right?) of her students didn't bother with this rating site and went directly to the head of the department with a petition against her. I suppose that petition still exists somewhere and the exact number of signatures could be checked. I have no idea how common it might be for students to start a petition like this. I'm not aware it ever happened in my college.

 

[Frame Dragger]

She sounds like a very atypical woman from a psychological standpoint. Such violent crimes from an early age, coupled with intelligence... typically a male pattern. Some of the impulse-control issues have to make one wonder if these are sociopathic traits/neurological structures at play? I can't stress how unusual it is for a woman to have a history of murder-by-firearm in the first degree like this.

 

[turbo]

According to the news story, though, "dozens" (which, if it's accurate, has to mean at least 24, right?) of her students didn't bother with this rating site and went directly to the head of the department with a petition against her. I suppose that petition still exists somewhere and the exact number of signatures could be checked. I have no idea how common it might be for students to start a petition like this. I'm not aware it ever happened in my college.

According to reports, she "taught" by reading out of the textbook. If I was paying for a college education and my professor did that, I'd be talking to the department head, and if that didn't work, head to the dean's office and work up from there.

 

[elect_eng]

I have no idea how common it might be for students to start a petition like this. I'm not aware it ever happened in my college.

I agree with what you are implying. In my experience, students often complain verbally (and I guess in writing on the internet nowadays) at the slightest provocation. Often the best professors get negative comments from mediocre students. Very little can be made from this kind of thing.

However, students orgainizing a petition is very rare and an extreme measure to take. A student really sticks their neck out if they do that, and I doubt they would be motivated to do it without a real conviction that an important principle is at stake. There is always an oddball to lodge a complaint with a Dean, but a group of students? ... That's a big deal.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, cronxeh linked to that earlier. Out of 34 comments 20 were "good", 5 were "average", and 9 were "poor".

According to the news story, though, "dozens" (which, if it's accurate, has to mean at least 24, right?) of her students didn't bother with this rating site and went directly to the head of the department with a petition against her. I suppose that petition still exists somewhere and the exact number of signatures could be checked. I have no idea how common it might be for students to start a petition like this. I'm not aware it ever happened in my college.

For students to actually go to a department chair to complain is a bit uncommon. However, it's not unheard of, nor does it guarantee there was a problem with her teaching. Sometimes all it takes is one or two whiny students to "rally the troops" so to speak. Students DO complain a lot, especially the ones who think the course is too hard for them and that it should be made easier so they can pass.

On the other hand, there may have been merit to the complaint, but the department chair didn't make a big deal of it in front of the students and rather took it into consideration and addressed it privately. This is the appropriate way to handle such a situation...you don't undermine faculty in front of students, but then talk to the faculty without the students present to address concerns (or start sitting in on some lectures to see if the complaints have any merit). Even as a course coordinator, I do this when students complain about a particular faculty member's teaching style...I sit in the lectures and see for myself if there is any merit to the complaint, or if they are just trying to find excuses for their own poor performance on exams (i.e., lack of studying, not lack of teaching).

 

[dacruick]

really though, how sick must you be to do that. Where I'm from there is no death penalty, but if we had a vote on it I think I'd acquire multiple identities.

 

[zoobyshoe]

She sounds like a very atypical woman from a psychological standpoint. Such violent crimes from an early age, coupled with intelligence... typically a male pattern. Some of the impulse-control issues have to make one wonder if these are sociopathic traits/neurological structures at play? I can't stress how unusual it is for a woman to have a history of murder-by-firearm in the first degree like this.

I am sure there are shrinks at work as we speak who've talked to her and are trying either to arrive at a diagnosis or rule out any mental illness. It would be interesting to know what they've found out that we don't know yet.

According to reports, she "taught" by reading out of the textbook. If I was paying for a college education and my professor did that, I'd be talking to the department head, and if that didn't work, head to the dean's office and work up from there.

Actually, I heard of worse things: professors who ramble on about their lives all through class, then announce quizzes on stuff from the book that they haven't even discussed in class. I know students who've gone to, and emailed, the teacher directly complaining about apparently unfair practices, like, "You specifically said the test would be about this, but instead it was about that." I've never heard of an organized petition, is all I'm saying.

I agree with what you are implying. In my experience, students often complain verbally (and I guess in writing on the internet nowadays) at the slightest provocation. Often the best professors get negative comments from mediocre students. Very little can be made from this kind of thing.

However, students orgainizing a petition is very rare and an extreme measure to take. A student really sticks their neck out if they do that, and I doubt they would be motivated to do it without a real conviction that an important principle is at stake. There is always an oddball to lodge a complaint with a Dean, but a group of students? ... That's a big deal.

That's what I'm thinking: this is probably extremely unusual, but, of course, I haven't seen a poll or any statistics, if such exists.

On the other hand, there may have been merit to the complaint, but the department chair didn't make a big deal of it in front of the students and rather took it into consideration and addressed it privately. This is the appropriate way to handle such a situation...you don't undermine faculty in front of students, but then talk to the faculty without the students present to address concerns...

It seems that this is exactly how it was handled. Although he apparently dismissed the students, she was actually privately spoken to about the petition. If you read the whole link the student interviewed said she began dropping phrases and terms they'd used in the petition in class:

"Podila just sort of blew us off," said Phillips, who was among a group of five students who met with him in fall 2008 or early 2009 to air their concerns.

After students met privately with Podila, Phillips said, Bishop seemingly made a point in class to use some of the same phrases they had so they would know she knew about it.

"It was like she was parroting what we had said," Phillips said.

Creepy.

 

[edpell]

In the shooting death of brother did the police interview any of brothers friends? Did they look at the bullet placement in the walls? Did they question Dad? Did they find and question the motorist that was threatened with the gun? Did they ask for a polygraph on Amy? Did they determine how far the gun was from brother when fired? Did they talk with any of Amy's friends?

I have to assume the Braintree town lawyer has told the police force to shut their mouths and we will never hear from them again. Was the same kind of anger that Amy uses used by Mom against the town employees of Braintree? Or by Dad against whoever? Or by brother against whoever?

 

[Evo]

In the shooting death of brother did the police interview any of brothers friends? Did they look at the bullet placement in the walls? Did they question Dad? Did they find and question the motorist that was threatened with the gun? Did they ask for a polygraph on Amy? Did they determine how far the gun was from brother when fired? Did they talk with any of Amy's friends?

I have to assume the Braintree town lawyer has told the police force to shut their mouths and we will never hear from them again. Was the same kind of anger that Amy uses used by Mom against the town employees of Braintree? Or by Dad against whoever? Or by brother against whoever?

Don't forget the 2002 charges for assault at the International House of Pancakes over a booster seat.

 

[MotoH]

There also appears to be a traffic violation for running a red light in May of 1998.

What a lunatic.

 

[Evo]

There also appears to be a traffic violation for running a red light in May of 1998.

What a lunatic.

We're talking about assault.

 

[lisab]

Don't forget the 2002 charges for assault at the International House of Pancakes over a booster seat.

In that incident, she allegedly said, "I am Dr Amy Bishop." I'm just curious, is she well-known in the biology world?

And I mean for her work, not for shooting and assaulting people .

 

[MotoH]

We're talking about assault.

Drivers who run red lights are 15% more likely to either be late for something, or have anger issues.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Apparantly that petition was real, and all of this was coming to a head fairly quickly. Obviously she's impuslive and violent, and she sounds like an innatentive and uninterested teacher. Classic 'stuck in her own head' symptoms. I don't know if I'd call her 'mentally ill' however. Being violent and selfish can be symptoms, but they can just be terrible flaws as well.

 

[Brian_C]

In my opinion, these kinds of disputes could be avoided if universities hired qualified people in the first place. I'm not a biologist, but her publication history prior to joining UAH in 2003 doesn't look impressive at all. In a span of 11 years, she only had five articles in which she was the first author. Something tells me that being a woman and a Harvard graduate gave her a leg up in the hiring process.

 

[Frame Dragger]

In my opinion, these kinds of disputes could be avoided if universities hired qualified people in the first place. I'm not a biologist, but her publication history prior to joining UAH in 2003 doesn't look impressive at all. In a span of 11 years, she only had five articles in which she was the first author. Something tells me that being a woman and a Harvard graduate gave her a leg up in the hiring process.

Interesting, the spree killer (whatever his ideology) at Fort Hood had a very unimpressive... even incompetent record. I think the lesson here is that the model of the male underachiever (read: avg intelligence, moderate income) can be expanded to that same sense of inadequacy leading to anger when confronted with failure in any field. The trick is to recognize the depression, odd behaviour, history of violence (sometimes), incompetence due to lack of focus and drive, and most importantly a quiet or absent affect broken by sudden or violent outbursts.

In the case of Fort Hood, he blogged, and probably talked to some people. In the case of Amy Bishop, the record is clear.

Everyone knows these people...

Everyone knows that one person who could snap.

 

[lisab]

Everyone knows these people...

Everyone knows that one person who could snap.

About two years ago, we fired a very odd guy at my work.

About a year later, I was talking about it with some coworkers. Amazingly, to a person we all admitted that at the time, we each thought there was a good chance he would come back and kill us. No one had said anything about it until that moment.

 

[Frame Dragger]

About two years ago, we fired a very odd guy at my work.

About a year later, I was talking about it with some coworkers. Amazingly, to a person we all admitted that at the time, we each thought there was a good chance he would come back and kill us. No one had said anything about it until that moment.

Not an uncommon story! The only time it's usually told of course, is that small percentage when the person happens to be on that tipping point, does something terrible and makes the news.

For the record, good to see you're alive and well, along with your co-workers!

 

[Gokul43201]

According to the news story, though, "dozens" (which, if it's accurate, has to mean at least 24, right?) of her students didn't bother with this rating site and went directly to the head of the department with a petition against her. I suppose that petition still exists somewhere and the exact number of signatures could be checked. I have no idea how common it might be for students to start a petition like this. I'm not aware it ever happened in my college.

Sounds like sour grapes from lazy students. And I'd be more interested in the arguments presented in the petition, rather than the number of signatures in it.

From the comments posted, it sounds like she set a very high standard, gave tough tests, but put in a lot of effort into helping students - such as scheduling extra classes, helping students outside of class, and having guest lecturers. That, in my book, shows most of the signs of a good teacher.

There may have been plenty of good behavioral reasons to have red-flagged/fired her long ago, but I don't yet buy the argument that she was a bad teacher, especially since it's based entirely on a bunch of students whining about her. As nearly any Homework Helper or Mentor here can attest, the more you refuse to hand out solutions to lazy students, the more likely you are to be the target of whining, complaints and hate mail.