I've finally hit a wall with math

[dkotschessaa]

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

Ah, so Group complex has a complex. And one other guy was probably being sarcastic. So 60% of the replies here are pretty much bogus.

-Dave K

 

[MarcZZ]

Yes, I can't believe what I'm reading about "mathematical limit" and "mathematical walls" and so forth. Full on, unmitigated BS.

There are so many conditions that can determine how you are doing in a class. The time spent, the quality of the time, the quality of the teaching, the resources, how pedantic your teacher is in grading, etc. (Note the absence of the word "aptitude.")

In the scope of your entire career, of which your degree is but one part, and your classes a part of that, your math classes at this point are just a particular hurdle you're going to have to figure out. There is no one answer. You might have to retake a class. You might have to take less classes so you can spend more time on it (and yes, this is more time and possibly tuition.)

There's teacher office hours, online resources (khan academy!), supplemental books, this forum, tutors, improved study habits, repetition, pondering, brute force of will, commitment, time management, stress reduction, meditation, diet, sleep, and exercise. Note again the absence of the word aptitude.

By the way - what kind of things are holding you back? Is it little "dumb mistakes" or a failure to grasp some of the concepts? What might be mischaracterized as "aptitude" is often just some sort of neurological brain fart (a.d.d., dyscalcula/dyslexia, working memory problems, etc.) that can be addressed in direct ways.

-Dave K

It's just kind of a mix of a bunch of things. Firstly, I underestimated the course and what I needed to study, I suppose I came off feeling a little to sure of my footing from Calculus I and thought that I would be able to grasp integrals as readily as I grasped derivatives (big mistake), I did study and I did all my assignments and did well on them, and managed to answer most of the bonus questions in the book that my professor recommended. However, come test day I went in with about 3 days previous worth of pretty solid math concept practice behind me and I just got absolutely clobbered and only managed to get 30% on the midterm, (the class average was 39%) unfortunately this midterm was weighted as 20% of my mark so I took a huge beating from it. I know it's not the end of the world one bad midterm, but since then I feel I've been struggling to catch up, I went to the professor, I've gotten a tutor, I'm doing whatever I can to try to get ready for the next midterm. However it's next week, and I don't think I'm going to perform well on it, my grades have gone down in my recent assignments, and I'm not understanding the material.

I would invest even more time into this course but by now I'm just completely stressed out, I'm also juggling another nasty time sucking course (E&M) which I'm doing very well in thanks to hard work, and I am very weary of trying to save Calculus II which I don't think I'm going to be able to salvage this semester anyways by this point, and risk killing my E&M mark at the same time. I am just really bothered as I had a similar thing happen to me in LA last semester where I got a (12%) on my first midterm, though I survived that course through sheer grit and all nighters. But I'm not pleased with the mark I got in that course, and I don't have the determination to do that this time as I have practically 0 confidence. My academic advising center has suggested I've developed a math test anxiety. I most certainly have some sort, as I feel stress is obstructing everything I do with this course.

I'm already behind in my studies when I came into university I failed my MPT which set me back a semester last year, then I had second doubts about what I want to major in so took some different courses, now I have a good idea, however I don't think I'll be able to handle the major I'm aiming for if I can't handle 3 tough courses at once, I just feel I'm never going to graduate and that I can't afford to keep treading water in university anymore trying to juggle courses which I'm not passing, and getting nowhere. I haven't failed a course yet, and I have a reasonably high average outside of math (3.7 in Chem, 3.5 in Physics), but I'm just getting slaughtered in math and worried that this is a sign of things to come, and I can't afford to keep taking reduced course load semesters just so I can pass math courses.

I'm in a particular pickle with this course as it is a co-requisite for the Physics I'm doing well in, so if I drop it I won't be able to finish my Physics course, and then I totally waste tons of money this semester for nothing. But I'm destined to get a F on my transcript which I hear has negative ramifications for job prospects afterwards. I'm kind of just wondering if I should go to trade school, because my job prospects afterwards might be ruined by these bad math grades. :/

 

[symbolipoint]

dkotschessaa at least makes some sense. At least doesn't seem too extreme or onesided. Some sensible points are made: Posts #30 and 31.

Aptitude has some significance in learning Mathematics, but effort and studying intelligently are still mandatory. Some people learn Mathematics slower than others. The educational systems are set to make some of them feel bad. Basically if you not pass a course, you must retake it. If you retake it too many times, the school prohibits you from retaking it again - but you should have gotten the help you needed before that.

 

[dkotschessaa]

So, I think it's pretty clear that this has nothing to do with aptitude. It's stress, time, and a whole bunch of other factors.

I've never heard of a job asking for transcripts! They look at the degree, maybe what classes you had, what other kinds of things you have done (research, internships, etc). Have you not heard "D is for diploma!" Maybe you won't get the highest honors, etc, which of course we all want. There's lots of stuff you can do.

Talk honestly to your advisors and professors about your concern for your grades and co-requisites and what not, and see what they say. I mean really honestly, like "I'm stuck and I'm freaking out." They want you to do well, and at least get your degree, even if it feels like they are trying to kill you. That co-req/pre-req stuf stuff is not always as set in stone as it looks...Sometimes they can be flexible, especially if you are doing well in other classes and showing commitment.

-Dave K

 

[MarcZZ]

So, I think it's pretty clear that this has nothing to do with aptitude. It's stress, time, and a whole bunch of other factors.

I've never heard of a job asking for transcripts! They look at the degree, maybe what classes you had, what other kinds of things you have done (research, internships, etc). Have you not heard "D is for diploma!" Maybe you won't get the highest honors, etc, which of course we all want. There's lots of stuff you can do.

Talk honestly to your advisors and professors about your concern for your grades and co-requisites and what not, and see what they say. I mean really honestly, like "I'm stuck and I'm freaking out." They want you to do well, and at least get your degree, even if it feels like they are trying to kill you. That co-req/pre-req stuf stuff is not always as set in stone as it looks...Sometimes they can be flexible, especially if you are doing well in other classes and showing commitment.

-Dave K

I suppose you could say that my aptitude is gone because of stress and loss of confidence. :/ Do you think I should just focus on my Physics and Chem whilst trying to pick up what I can from Calc II to have another go at it, or should I just try to pass it right now. I know I will probably seriously hurt my Physics marks if I do so, and I really don't want to do that. I would almost rather fail a course and get A's in the other 2, than get a D in Calc and a C in Physics. :|

 

[MarcZZ]

I also should mention that when I study it seems to take me forever to do assigned problems, or get answers and I don't feel like I'm very time efficient when I study. Many of my recent assignments of my course I can't even do and have to go in for my profs help lol...

 

[symbolipoint]

This must be a very recent trend in scientific and business culture:

...

I've never heard of a job asking for transcripts! They look at the degree, maybe what classes you had, what other kinds of things you have done (research, internships, etc). Have you not heard "D is for diploma!" ...

-Dave K

 

[Group_Complex]

Of course he doesn't. If you read his other posts he has concerns about doubting his own ability so he comes on here and tries to make others feel bad.

No. I find it irritating that this forum continues to perpetuate politically correct myths such as "Anyone can do advanced math if they work hard at it".

As for my evidence, it is entirely empirical. I never got below 95% in mathematics in my entire life until I took my second course in Abstract Algebra and am now sitting on 70% due to a complete inability to grasp some concepts. My brain had no problem in Real Analysis (I got 98% total in the course with very little study) but when it comes to Algebra I have 0 intuition. At the end of the semester I will be lucky to scrape a B, which rules me out of attending a top graduate school and decent mathematical advisors.

If you want to do well in mathematics, hard work is enough, I put in the hard work, even with some talent for prior mathematics and have ended up with subpar results. I have spoken to my professors and they agree that to work in pure mathematics requires a spark of talent, either you have it or you don't.

 

[MarneMath]

Well, that's a nice opinion to have, and if that is how you choose to view the world, that's fair enough for you. Even if we assume you're absolutely right, I don't see how simplying telling someone "oh you reached your ability give up" is productive. I think the simple fact is that the OP can pass Calc II and finish his Chemistry degree. I also think the other person who jumped in can pass his class and also one day finish his degree.

Your answers seems to be, no they can't, which is a bit of an unproductive answer.

 

[symbolipoint]

Group Complex is trying to say something moderate but members are just not understanding it. Hard work is often important, but so is talent. The distinction is, talent is relative. Top talent in Math means maybe you could get a degree and do good research; less than top talent means you have plenty of room in something that uses or relies on Math.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I suppose you could say that my aptitude is gone because of stress and loss of confidence. :/ Do you think I should just focus on my Physics and Chem whilst trying to pick up what I can from Calc II to have another go at it, or should I just try to pass it right now. I know I will probably seriously hurt my Physics marks if I do so, and I really don't want to do that. I would almost rather fail a course and get A's in the other 2, than get a D in Calc and a C in Physics. :|

You should probably talk to your professors and advisors and see what they recommend. They encounter these kinds of situations a lot, where there are decisions to be made about what to take and what to drop depending on what grade.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I also should mention that when I study it seems to take me forever to do assigned problems, or get answers and I don't feel like I'm very time efficient when I study. Many of my recent assignments of my course I can't even do and have to go in for my profs help lol...

Is it

a) Trouble with larger concepts?
b) dumb mistakes and algebraic stuff? (Switching signs, numbers, etc.)
c) "other"? (not sure what that would be).

 

[dkotschessaa]

No. I find it irritating that this forum continues to perpetuate politically correct myths such as "Anyone can do advanced math if they work hard at it".

This is not what's being said. You are telling a person, based on very limited information, that they are probably at a mythical "wall," and that they may not have the aptitude for something. It's clear that the poster is facing a variety of circumstances involving stress and time management (too much coursework).

As for "anyone can do math..." well it's not as simple as that. The truth is that anyone can do whatever amount of math they want, provided they are willing to put in the time and effort and that they enjoy it enough to do so. There may come a point where someone says "this is too much work, given my aptitude, so maybe I should do something else." This is not the same sentiment as "I'm no good at math and I should give up." There is no wall. Only hills and humps. Or perhaps walls which require tunneling through.

One can always increase ones knowledge, sometimes bounds or by small increments, in whatever subject they can will themselves to do so. This is not politically correct. It is just correct.

As for my evidence, it is entirely empirical. I never got below 95% in mathematics in my entire life until I took my second course in Abstract Algebra and am now sitting on 70% due to a complete inability to grasp some concepts. My brain had no problem in Real Analysis (I got 98% total in the course with very little study) but when it comes to Algebra I have 0 intuition. At the end of the semester I will be lucky to scrape a B, which rules me out of attending a top graduate school and decent mathematical advisors.

You're being dramatic and projecting your perceived failure (a B, really?) onto someone else.

If you want to do well in mathematics, hard work is enough, I put in the hard work, even with some talent for prior mathematics and have ended up with subpar results. I have spoken to my professors and they agree that to work in pure mathematics requires a spark of talent, either you have it or you don't.

Funny, most people I've spoken too have said the opposite. Either you heard them wrong or you need to talk to less cynical professors.

-Dave K

 

[dkotschessaa]

This must be a very recent trend in scientific and business culture:

Aside from a highly hypothetical scenario where an employer will look at employees A and B, otherwise perfectly matched, and say, "this one has a better GPA," I don't remember ever hearing about an employer asking for grades. Are your experiences different?

-Dave K

 

[MathWarrior]

This seems highly relevant to this conversation those who have not watched/heard/seen it might enjoy it. Very informative, for those who might think they aren't that great in math, or are struggling.

https://client.blueskybroadcast.com/siam08/hyman/

 

[clope023]

Aside from a highly hypothetical scenario where an employer will look at employees A and B, otherwise perfectly matched, and say, "this one has a better GPA," I don't remember ever hearing about an employer asking for grades. Are your experiences different?

-Dave K

I was recently at a career fair where my fairly low overall gpa compared to my upper division/ major gpa kept me out of the loop for jobs, but these were internships and jobs for people just graduating. I've heard when one has already worked and have been out of school for a number of years your grades become irrelevant, or something to that effect.

 

[MarcZZ]

I was recently at a career fair where my fairly low overall gpa compared to my upper division/ major gpa kept me out of the loop for jobs, but these were internships and jobs for people just graduating. I've heard when one has already worked and have been out of school for a number of years your grades become irrelevant, or something to that effect.

I'm aware, that after you get into the workforce that your grades become irrelevant. However, getting into the workforce is a major challenge especially if you don't have stellar academics behind you. The constant beating I'm taking in my math courses is making me question whether I should continue, or if it would be practically career suicide to continue so. I really like science, unfortunately I'm being roughed up by the math. :(

 

[clope023]

I'm aware, that after you get into the workforce that your grades become irrelevant. However, getting into the workforce is a major challenge especially if you don't have stellar academics behind you. The constant beating I'm taking in my math courses is making me question whether I should continue, or if it would be practically career suicide to continue so. I really like science, unfortunately I'm being roughed up by the math. :(

I was being roughed up by the math as well when I started college as well (started below college algebra), now I'm a physics and electrical engineering major and am well versed in applied math (know PDE's and complex variables).

The math comes with lots of practice, office hours and lectures aren't enough for me so I do extra study and reading on my own, doing lots of problems from schaum's outlines. I know people don't like working with solutions in this site but doing problems with worked solutions right in front of me helps me to generalize the procedure and now I can do problems and proofs on my own.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's talent; there was a girl in my university who had done calc 1-3, diffy q's, linear algebra, complex variables, and intermediate classical mechanics and she was 17 and still in high school (she's going to caltech now). I don't think that's just hard work alone, but I try not to let cases like her discourage me (thought it does), there's still plenty of work to do in stem IMO.

 

[micromass]

No. I find it irritating that this forum continues to perpetuate politically correct myths such as "Anyone can do advanced math if they work hard at it".

As for my evidence, it is entirely empirical. I never got below 95% in mathematics in my entire life until I took my second course in Abstract Algebra and am now sitting on 70% due to a complete inability to grasp some concepts. My brain had no problem in Real Analysis (I got 98% total in the course with very little study) but when it comes to Algebra I have 0 intuition. At the end of the semester I will be lucky to scrape a B, which rules me out of attending a top graduate school and decent mathematical advisors.

If you want to do well in mathematics, hard work is enough, I put in the hard work, even with some talent for prior mathematics and have ended up with subpar results. I have spoken to my professors and they agree that to work in pure mathematics requires a spark of talent, either you have it or you don't.

Oh, so you're an undergrad yourself? I don't see where you get the experience that aptitude is so important.
I had the same difficulty as you in abstract algebra. I found it very very hard and I couldn't get my brain around it. It was very abstract and I'm very lucky I passed the course. But a year later, I found abstract algebra very easy and I didn't see what the problem was that I was having. And now I'm a PhD student in mathematics, so I ended up alright for somebody with little aptitude, no??

The thing is that abstractions tend to be very hard to grasp and it requires time. Not even working constantly can help you. The concepts really need to sink in for a long time. It's not because you don't understand a concept immediately that you have hit a wall that you can never cross. Quite the contrary. Give it some time. In a year or two you will find that abstract algebra was extremely easy.

In any case, I don't think you should make judgements about others and about how they're not going to make it. Certainly if you're only an undergrad yourself and have little experience in learning abstract topics.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Good for you micromass.

I think even non-abstract math works this way. I never really understand the material in a course until probably the day after the final exam. And even then...

-DaveK

 

[micromass]

Good for you micromass.

I think even non-abstract math works this way. I never really understand the material in a course until probably the day after the final exam. And even then...

-DaveK

In my (limited) experience, it's a very gradual process. If I look back at my knowledge of a few years ago, I am amazed on how little I knew. Even in a final exam. Things that were not obvious back then, are very simple now.
For example, when I took topology, I thought I understood it very well. Then I studied for the final, and I found out that there was a lot that I didn't know. Now I teach the course, and I still find new things or perspectives that I didn't know when I was a student. I am certain that I will keep discovering new insights even in 10 or 20 years. That's how mathematics works. So no: it's not because you don't know abstract algebra (or calculus) well, that you should quit mathematics. Hard work and passion are far more important than raw talent (which also plays a roll, but a minor roll in my opinion).

 

[X89codered89X]

First is to realize that problems in Calc 2 come in only 5 basic forms:

1. U substitution
2. Integration by Parts
3. Partial Fractions
4. Completing the Square
5. Trig Substitution

The most important skill is to recognize which method will solve what type of integral, then apply that method.

Calc 2 also usually includes series, which for many, including myself, was the first time you look at that topic. A few kids apparently touched upon it in high school for some reason. I wish I could have. Study your butt off for series.

On another note, the problems tended to be longer in calc 2 than in calc 1 or calc 3. The techniques theoretically are as simple as in calc 1, but there is a lot more manipulation to do for each problem.

 

[SunnyBoyNY]

Aside from a highly hypothetical scenario where an employer will look at employees A and B, otherwise perfectly matched, and say, "this one has a better GPA," I don't remember ever hearing about an employer asking for grades. Are your experiences different?

-Dave K

I used to work for a former university professor (he decided that having his own R&D company will be more fun) but he never asked for a transcript. When it came to hiring, he looked at the school and GPA and perhaps asked for an explanation when the latter was somewhat low. Grades themselves rarely mattered.

As for the topic originator:: I remember studying hard for a power electronics course in grad school. I went through almost every exercise in the book so I felt well prepared. The midterm exam had a question on one exercise that I did not do. Of course I blew the test. The whole PE field was so... vast and mythical to me (higher math still is...). In any case,
I am a PE engineer and I laugh at the problem I could not solve back then. Knowledge comes gradually and you can do it. If you could get into a college and could pass the first few math courses, then you will do fine. It might just take a while and perhaps a change in your learning strategy.

Good luck!

 

[symbolipoint]

Aside from a highly hypothetical scenario where an employer will look at employees A and B, otherwise perfectly matched, and say, "this one has a better GPA," I don't remember ever hearing about an employer asking for grades. Are your experiences different?

-Dave K

YES.

All employers who employed me for professional positions required my transcripts.

 

[dkotschessaa]

YES.

All employers who employed me for professional positions required my transcripts.

Transcripts, yes. (For GPA (maybe), for what classes you took, your major/minor, to confirm your degree) But the question is to what extent they care about individual grades.

-Dave K

 

[symbolipoint]

Transcripts, yes. (For GPA (maybe), for what classes you took, your major/minor, to confirm your degree) But the question is to what extent they care about individual grades.

-Dave K

The question of what extent caring about individual grades depends on the company/institution's policy, the particular job position, and the administrators who are reviewing the candidates. Knowing to what extent would vary - depends on the employers.

Some employers will directly assess a candidate to find what math skills the candidate has - what can he do with the math that he has retained.

This is moving off the topic of "hit a wall with math".

 

[homeomorphic]

As for "anyone can do math..." well it's not as simple as that. The truth is that anyone can do whatever amount of math they want, provided they are willing to put in the time and effort and that they enjoy it enough to do so. There may come a point where someone says "this is too much work, given my aptitude, so maybe I should do something else." This is not the same sentiment as "I'm no good at math and I should give up." There is no wall. Only hills and humps. Or perhaps walls which require tunneling through.

That's about right. There's never a wall. You can always improve. It's my suspicion that anyone COULD do advanced math if they put enough effort into it. Granted, it might take some people twenty years to learn differential topology, rather than two years for someone with more aptitude, but I suspect it would be possible eventually. I could be wrong--it's unlikely that someone who found it that difficult would go through this experiment--but that's my hunch.

Here's something my adviser told me about my thesis: "I don't think there are any mathematical difficulties. There are psychological difficulties and psychology is a much more difficult science that mathematics."

It can be a self-fulfilling prophecy if you start saying that you aren't good enough.

I am somewhat guilty of that myself, lately. There are people who aren't as good at math as I am that succeed where I fail because maybe they have more people skills, fit into the system better, are less rebellious, so they don't have to try so hard to swim against the stream, etc. There are people I used to work with on homework and I had way more ideas than they did on homework, but they graduated and I haven't yet because they were plugging away on their thesis until it got done, but I couldn't restrain myself I was interested in too many other things and couldn't focus on it. But part of it is that I let grad school psych me out too much and shake my confidence. I should have just tried to ignore the pressure and keep pushing through it. I have been doubting lately whether I will graduate at all, but I think I have pulled myself together, and things are moving forward again. But it's just a matter of ignoring the fear of defeat and just trying to focus on the task at hand. I just think of the next little step. I don't think of finishing the thesis, I just think about proving the next case of my theorem each day. One by one the cases are being proven, and I still feel guilty that it is going too slow, but it's getting there. Eventually, math becomes more like a marathon than a 100 m race. Probably the most important thing is just to keep calm under fire and not get overwhelmed by the pressure.

You can't go off of the anecdotal evidence of one person to prove that there are limits to mathematical ability. That's quite obviously not even remotely scientific.

 

[chiro]

I'd imagine that most of the people that stay it for the long haul are probably not seeing it as something that requires any kind of strenous force just to do what they need to do, and don't feel at least in some level, that they are putting in as much effort as the other guy who otherwise feels like he is trying to pull a truck with his teeth.

To someone, you will have them be aware of the difficulties, the failures, and all that comes with this in a particular viewpoint encapsulating these attributes and for others those attributes are seen a completely different way more so as a means where one needs to learn more rather than seeing themselves as being a process of constant barrages of failure and demoralization.

But this happens in many things not just mathematics: one person will see endless instances of torture possibly both physically and mentally and the other will see opportunity to grow, develop, and experience while not focusing on the detrimental aspects as much as the other who feels more demoralized would.

Everyone has their own limits to how important something is them and usually the more important thing will win out in some way (this includes even the fear of failure where some will avoid what they otherwise value to be important but the fear of failure has a much higher priority than overcoming it).

 

[Group_Complex]

That's about right. There's never a wall. You can always improve. It's my suspicion that anyone COULD do advanced math if they put enough effort into it. Granted, it might take some people twenty years to learn differential topology, rather than two years for someone with more aptitude, but I suspect it would be possible eventually. I could be wrong--it's unlikely that someone who found it that difficult would go through this experiment--but that's my hunch.

Here's something my adviser told me about my thesis: "I don't think there are any mathematical difficulties. There are psychological difficulties and psychology is a much more difficult science that mathematics."

It can be a self-fulfilling prophecy if you start saying that you aren't good enough.

I am somewhat guilty of that myself, lately. There are people who aren't as good at math as I am that succeed where I fail because maybe they have more people skills, fit into the system better, are less rebellious, so they don't have to try so hard to swim against the stream, etc. There are people I used to work with on homework and I had way more ideas than they did on homework, but they graduated and I haven't yet because they were plugging away on their thesis until it got done, but I couldn't restrain myself I was interested in too many other things and couldn't focus on it. But part of it is that I let grad school psych me out too much and shake my confidence. I should have just tried to ignore the pressure and keep pushing through it. I have been doubting lately whether I will graduate at all, but I think I have pulled myself together, and things are moving forward again. But it's just a matter of ignoring the fear of defeat and just trying to focus on the task at hand. I just think of the next little step. I don't think of finishing the thesis, I just think about proving the next case of my theorem each day. One by one the cases are being proven, and I still feel guilty that it is going too slow, but it's getting there. Eventually, math becomes more like a marathon than a 100 m race. Probably the most important thing is just to keep calm under fire and not get overwhelmed by the pressure.

You can't go off of the anecdotal evidence of one person to prove that there are limits to mathematical ability. That's quite obviously not even remotely scientific.

To be honest Homeomorphic, I would say that your friends may have more mathematical ability than you if you are finding it difficult to finish your thesis in the time that they have finished theirs. I also think you overestimate the effect of the "system" on your confidence, when it is much more likely that you have hit the wall in terms of mathematical ability. I would say it is a lack of talent which is your problem, as you have mentioned to me before, you had difficulty in Graduate Classes, I don't think it is that the culture of graduate school is against deep thought, I just think you are unable to think deeply because you have hit the mathematical wall.

 

[micromass]

To be honest Homeomorphic, I would say that your friends may have more mathematical ability than you if you are finding it difficult to finish your thesis in the time that they have finished theirs. I also think you overestimate the effect of the "system" on your confidence, when it is much more likely that you have hit the wall in terms of mathematical ability. I would say it is a lack of talent which is your problem, as you have mentioned to me before, you had difficulty in Graduate Classes, I don't think it is that the culture of graduate school is against deep thought, I just think you are unable to think deeply because you have hit the mathematical wall.

Could you please stop posting rubbish like that unless you have some kind of reference which agrees with you??