Joule Expansion: Cooling Effects & Kinetic Energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of Joule expansion on the temperature of gases, particularly contrasting ideal gases with real gases. Participants explore the relationship between kinetic energy, potential energy, and temperature, referencing concepts from thermal physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that for ideal gases, Joule expansion does not result in cooling, while for real gases, it can lead to cooling effects.
  • It is mentioned that the cooling effect during Joule expansion for real gases depends on the sign of the Joule-Thomson coefficient.
  • One participant questions the meaning of a decrease in kinetic energy and its relation to temperature, suggesting that temperature is defined by the Boltzmann distribution.
  • Another participant clarifies that temperature is not defined by the Boltzmann distribution but that they are equivalent at equilibrium.
  • There is a correction regarding the distinction between Joule expansion and Joule-Thomson expansion, with one participant admitting to a misreading.
  • A participant states that Joule expansion produces a very small change in temperature and notes the difficulty in measuring the Joule coefficient.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the cooling effects of Joule expansion, with some asserting it applies to real gases while others emphasize the conditions under which this occurs. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of kinetic energy changes on temperature.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the definitions and conditions under which Joule expansion and Joule-Thomson expansion are discussed, as well as the complexities involved in measuring temperature changes in these processes.

Donkeyking
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I read on 27 chapter from Blundell's Thermal Physics 2nd edition.

For ideal gases, Joule expansion doesn't cool gases. But for real gases, Joule expansion makes cooling effects. And this book(page 314) says that when gases expand, their potential energy of molecular interactions increases(since V is proprtional to 1/r). And this energy is exactly from kinetic energy of gas.(So makes kinetic energy of gas decrease)

What does the last sentence mean? Why does temperature decrease when kinetic energy of gas decrease?

I understand that low temperature makes average kinetic energy decrease(because of Boltzmann distribution, low temperature makes low average kinetic energy)..

Or... Is temperature defined by Boltzmann distribution? If a system has energy distribution of a temperature T, then does it said that the temperature of that system T?

I am sorry for this absurd question.
 
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Donkeyking said:
But for real gases, Joule expansion makes cooling effects.
Not always. It depends on the sign of the Joule-Thomson coefficient.

Donkeyking said:
Or... Is temperature defined by Boltzmann distribution? If a system has energy distribution of a temperature T, then does it said that the temperature of that system T?
It is not defined from the Boltzmann distribution, but at equilibrium, they are equivalent information. Fit a Boltzmann curve to the distribution of velocities and you will get the temperature.
 
DrClaude said:
Not always. It depends on the sign of the Joule-Thomson coefficient.
Dr Claude: Are you sure of this? Joule expansion is expansion into a vacuum as opposed to Joule Thomson isenthalpic expansion.
 
Philip Wood said:
Dr Claude: Are you sure of this? Joule expansion is expansion into a vacuum as opposed to Joule Thomson isenthalpic expansion.
Right. I misread that as Joule-Thomson. At least the rest of my post is still correct :redface:
 
Donkeyking said:
I read on 27 chapter from Blundell's Thermal Physics 2nd edition.

For ideal gases, Joule expansion doesn't cool gases. But for real gases, Joule expansion makes cooling effects. And this book(page 314) says that when gases expand, their potential energy of molecular interactions increases(since V is proprtional to 1/r). And this energy is exactly from kinetic energy of gas.(So makes kinetic energy of gas decrease)

What does the last sentence mean? Why does temperature decrease when kinetic energy of gas decrease?

I understand that low temperature makes average kinetic energy decrease(because of Boltzmann distribution, low temperature makes low average kinetic energy)..

Or... Is temperature defined by Boltzmann distribution? If a system has energy distribution of a temperature T, then does it said that the temperature of that system T?

I am sorry for this absurd question.

Temperature is average kinetic energy of the molecules.

Joule (free) expansion produces a very small change in temperature. Masuring the Joule coefficient is very difficult. As you say, for an ideal gas the Joule coefficient = 0.
 

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