Justify matrices form basis for SO(4)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around justifying a set of 4x4 matrices as a basis for the Lie Algebra of the group SO(4). Participants explore the necessary properties of these matrices, including linear independence and the conditions defining the Lie algebra.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the matrices must be real, satisfy \(AA^{T}=\mathbb{I}\), and have \(\text{det}A = \pm 1\) to be part of the group SO(4).
  • Others argue that the matrices are elements of the Lie algebra \(\mathfrak{so}(4)\), which requires \(A + A^{T} = 0\) and \(\text{tr}(A) = 0\).
  • A participant suggests that to show the matrices form a basis, one must demonstrate their linear independence and that they span the vector space of \(\mathfrak{so}(4)\).
  • There is a discussion about the dimensionality of \(\mathfrak{so}(4)\) and how to derive the number of basis elements needed.
  • One participant mentions writing the matrices in the form \(\delta_{ij} - \delta_{ji}\) to facilitate understanding their linear independence.
  • Another participant explains that the matrices are linearly independent because their non-zero entries occupy different positions.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of the notation \(E_{ij}\) for the matrices and how it relates to their linear combinations.
  • A later reply emphasizes that a basis must span the vector space and be linearly independent, suggesting a method to express any element of \(\mathfrak{so}(4)\) as a linear combination of the basis matrices.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need for linear independence and spanning properties for the matrices to form a basis. However, there is disagreement regarding the initial conditions for the matrices, with some confusing the requirements for the group SO(4) with those for its Lie algebra.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential confusion between the conditions for the group SO(4) and its Lie algebra \(\mathfrak{so}(4)\). The discussion also highlights the need for clarity in defining the properties of the matrices involved.

OhNoYaDidn't
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I am given the following set of 4x4 matrices. How can i justify that they form a basis for the Lie Algebra of the group SO(4)? I know that they must be real matrices, and AA^{T}=\mathbb{I}, and the detA = +-1. Do i show that the matrices are linearly independent, verify these properties, and so they are a basis? Why are they 6 elements?

<br /> _{A_1}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; -1 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> ,\\<br /> \<br /> _{A_2}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;-1 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 1&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> ,\\<br /> <br /> _{A_3}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;-1 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> \\<br /> _{B_1}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;-1 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 1&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> ,\\<br /> <br /> _{B_2}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; -1 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 1&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> ,\\<br /> <br /> _{B_3}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;1 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; -1 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br />
 
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OhNoYaDidn't said:
I am given the following set of 4x4 matrices. How can i justify that they form a basis for the Lie Algebra of the group SO(4)? I know that they must be real matrices, and AA^{T}=\mathbb{I}, and the detA = +-1. Do i show that the matrices are linearly independent, verify these properties, and so they are a basis? Why are they 6 elements?

<br /> _{A_1}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; -1 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> ,\\<br /> \<br /> _{A_2}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;-1 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 1&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> ,\\<br /> <br /> _{A_3}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;-1 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> \\<br /> _{B_1}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;-1 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 1&amp; 0&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> ,\\<br /> <br /> _{B_2}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; -1 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 1&amp; 0 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> ,\\<br /> <br /> _{B_3}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp;0 &amp;0 &amp;0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0 &amp;0 &amp;1 \\<br /> 0&amp; 0&amp; -1 &amp; 0<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br />
I get the impression you confuse the special orthogonal group ##SO(4)## and its Lie algebra ##\mathfrak{so}(4)##. At least on the level of their defining conditions. Your matrices are elements of a Lie algebra, whereas neither is invertible ##(AA^T=\mathbb{1})## nor is of determinant ##\pm 1##, which are the conditions for the group. In the Lie algebra ##\mathfrak{so}(4)## the defining conditions are ##A+A^T=0## and ##tr(A)=0##.

And, yes, to form a basis they have to be linear independent, which therefore has to be shown. I think this will be easier if you write them as ##\delta_{ij}-\delta_{ji}##. To show they form a basis, you also have to show that they span the entire vector space of ##\mathfrak{so}(4)##, which could easiest be done by counting the dimension: How many matrix entries are there for matrices in ##\mathbb{M}_\mathbb{R}(4)## and how many linear equations, conditions does this system have?
 
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fresh_42 said:
I get the impression you confuse the special orthogonal group ##SO(4)## and its Lie algebra ##\mathfrak{so}(4)##. At least on the level of their defining conditions. Your matrices are elements of a Lie algebra, whereas neither is invertible ##(AA^T=\mathbb{1})## nor is of determinant ##\pm 1##, which are the conditions for the group. In the Lie algebra ##\mathfrak{so}(4)## the defining conditions are ##A+A^T=0## and ##tr(A)=0##.

And, yes, to form a basis they have to be linear independent, which therefore has to be shown. I think this will be easier if you write them as ##\delta_{ij}-\delta_{ji}##. To show they form a basis, you also have to show that they span the entire vector space of ##\mathfrak{so}(4)##, which could easiest be done by counting the dimension: How many matrix entries are there for matrices in ##\mathbb{M}_\mathbb{R}(4)## and how many linear equations, conditions does this system have?
Thank you, fresh_42. I'm new to the subject, things are still a little confusing.
So, we know that a ##\mathbb{M}_\mathbb{R}(4)## matrix has 16 entries, but since ##A=-A^T##, we can get rid of the elements of the upper or lower triangular part of our matrix: hence subtracting ## N(N+1)/2## from ##N^2##, so now we need ##n=N^2-N(N+1)/2=N(N-1)/2## elements for this basis, which is exactly what i wanted to understand.
To show that they are linearly independent, i simply write them as a linear combination, multiplying them by constants: a, b, c, d, e, f, respectively, and prove ##a=b=c=d=e=f=0##.

What do you mean by writing them as ##\delta_{ij}-\delta_{ji}##.?
 
OhNoYaDidn't said:
What do you mean by writing them as ##\delta_{ij}-\delta_{ji}##.?
The matrices ##A,B## above are all of the form ##\delta_{ij}-\delta_{ji}## where ##\delta_{ij}## is a matrix with exactly one ##1## in the ##i-##th row and ##j-##th column and ##0## elsewhere. They are also written as ##E_{ij}, e_{ij}## or ##\mathfrak{e}_{ij}## or similar as they are the standard basis vectors like ##(0,\ldots,1,\ldots,0) \in \mathbb{R}^n##. To chose ##E_{ij}## is probably preferable over the ##\delta## notation, because it saves the ##\delta## for pairs of integers as usual; my fault, sorry.)

It is almost obvious by itself, that the matrices above are linear independent, since all non-zero entries are all in different positions so they cannot cancel each other out. The advantage of the notation as ##E_{ij}-E_{ji}## becomes important if you start multiplying them: ##E_{ij}\cdot E_{mn}=\delta_{jm}E_{in} ##, i.e. match the inner indices and take the outer as the new ones; zero if the inner indices don't match.
 
A set B of vectors (in this case matrices) is a basis of a vector space V if and only if any element of V can be written as a linear combination of the elements of B (i.e. B spans V) and the elements of B are linearly independent.

In order to show that B spans V=##\mathfrak so(4)##, you can simply find the general expression for an arbitrary element A of ##\mathfrak so(4)## using the "defining conditions" that fresh_42 referred (A is traceless and ##A=-A^\dagger##). If you do this, you will be able to write this matrix A as a linear combiantion of the matrices you wrote, so they span V.

In order to show that the elements of B are linearly independent, you can write a general linear combination of them, set it equal to zero, and solve the resulting equation: you will see that all coefficients must be zero, and this by definition tells you that B is linearly independent.
 
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Thank you guys, i got it :)
 

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