Katrina Fallout: Who Will Go Next

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  • #26
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I never though I'd see the day when Bush actually took responsiblity for something. Anyone see that segment on The Daily Show last night? That's when I first heard about it and my jaw dropped. :surprised Then I couldn't stop laughing after the clip of the guy's head exploding. :rofl:
 
  • #28
russ_watters
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Astronuc said:
I think the situation was somewhat different.
Certainly, but....
The state and federal government stepped in right away on 9/11. Giuliani had support. Nagin was faced with little or no support (or so it seems - we still need to learn exactly what happened), and that must have been frustrating.
Either way, the vast majority of the work done the day of and in the next few days was done by the police and fire departments of New York. As we see below, there were hundreds of thousands of troops at the state's disposal for Katrina relief (all the governor had to do is pick up a phone and call Texas and she'd have had an additonal 11,000 troops), but they were not mobilized until long after the hurricane.
The entire city of New York did not have to be evacuated
But more people were evacuated. What helped, though, is that it was a smaller area and most could walk away.
The destruction in and around New Orleans is a much greater scale than that of the WTC.
True.
And the US was not inolved in Iraq!
It's brought up a lot, but our involvement in Iraq is of no relevance here. The number of troops deployed to Katrina relief in the days leading up to the crisis was a tiny fraction of what was available. They could have had much more if they had ordered it. And after it passed, every avalable guardsman in the country could have been in LA and MS in a matter of days - hundreds of thousands of troops.
[from Tuesday] Florida National Guard special forces were leaving Tuesday to perform search and rescue missions in Mississippi in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. They are a part of the nearly 124,000 Guardsmen across 17 states available to help out Katrina’s victims, officials of the National Guard said Tuesday.

More than 5,000 National Guard troops across four states have already been activated... [emphasis added]
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9117367/
The disconnect between what was available and what was mobilized is obvious.

By now there are roughly 40,000 deployed. http://www.txarng.com/ [Broken]
 
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  • #29
BobG
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russ_watters said:
As we see below, there were hundreds of thousands of troops at the state's disposal for Katrina relief (all the governor had to do is pick up a phone and call Texas and she'd have had an additonal 11,000 troops), but they were not mobilized until long after the hurricane. But more people were evacuated. .... It's brought up a lot, but our involvement in Iraq is of no relevance here. The number of troops deployed to Katrina relief in the days leading up to the crisis was a tiny fraction of what was available. They could have had much more if they had ordered it. And after it passed, every avalable guardsman in the country could have been in LA and MS in a matter of days - hundreds of thousands of troops. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9117367/
The disconnect between what was available and what was mobilized is obvious.

By now there are roughly 40,000 deployed. http://www.txarng.com/ [Broken]
I agree with everything except the part "all the governor had to do is pick up a phone and call Texas and she'd have had an additonal 11,000 troops". She did speak with New Mexico and both governors agreed New Mexico National Guard would help. That's not enough. It still has to be approved by 'the proper authorities'. Washington didn't give their approval until days after Blanco and Richardson had talked.

Your last sentence is the most pertinent, "The disconnect between what was available and what was mobilized is obvious." The system needed a huge kick to break it out of its bureaucratic logjam and no kick was forthcoming.
 
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  • #30
Astronuc
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Either way, the vast majority of the work done the day of and in the next few days was done by the police and fire departments of New York. As we see below, there were hundreds of thousands of troops at the state's disposal for Katrina relief (all the governor had to do is pick up a phone and call Texas and she'd have had an additonal 11,000 troops), but they were not mobilized until long after the hurricane.
A lot of emergency folk came from outside of NY City - for starters NJ and CT, then from across the country. It was a big effort - but they could get there.

IIRC, New Orleans and the vicinity only had two accessible routes I-10 (west) and one other which I can't put my finger on. Routes N, S and E were destroyed or underwater.

IIRC, 3000 of Louisiana's National Guard, and 50% of equipment are in Iraq. Otherwise they would have been available. That leaves about 8000, but they were distributed to help other areas, and if they were N or E, they could not get there.

There were La NG in New Orleans - apparently about 2000 or so, but they were spead thin and overwhelmed, and it is not clear at this point, what equipment they had. I believe the La NG depot (armory) in New Orleans was flooded, and they lost most of their equipment.

The governor can only control NG units within the state, so the 100,000+ NG in 17 other states would have to activated by their governors or the President, which they did by Wed-Thu (1-2 days after they were needed) and it seems they weren't getting to NO until Fri, and they had to take a circuitous route.

Clearly the various investigations will have to figure out what worked and what didn't. That will take time.

But I do agree, the Nagin and the governor could probably have done more, and there is a lot that should have been done prior to Katrina that wasn't, and that applies to all levels of government. And it also applies to every other major population center in the country.
 
  • #31
Ivan Seeking
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Well, yesterday the replublicans shot down the call for a 911 style bi-partisan investigation. I can't imagine why, can you? :rolleyes:
 
  • #32
kyleb
Becuse Hillary is the one who called for it and they don't want her winning any points with the public in light of her likely upcoming presidential bid. ;)
 
  • #33
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kyleb said:
Becuse Hillary is the one who called for it and they don't want her winning any points with the public in light of her likely upcoming presidential bid. ;)
That, and they know the WH is as guilty as sin.
 
  • #34
Informal Logic
MoveOn has a petition for an independent investigation, and people can write their congressmen.

They can run, but they cannot hide. The world has seen the invasion of Iraq, Americans saw government intervention in private family matters, followed by the sliming of the innocent in relation to Terri Schiavo, Bush has dodged the Downing Street memos, Rove the Plame leak, and so forth. Look at Bush's ratings, and polls regarding his honesty and integrity. I can't believe America will accept an investigation that is not independent.
 
  • #35
kyleb
From what I have seen, the Administration is loosing support from Republican legislature rather quickly at this point. While I have no doubt that there are still plenty of them who would like to hid the guilt of the WH on this, I do think that we will see an investigation put in place though a less political threatening source.
 
  • #36
McGyver
NO Police Super Gone, Mayor Soon to Go

By now, I'm sure all of you are aware of the New Orleans' police superintendant resigning. Now shocking news of corroborated reports (sorry I don't have the link) of police perpetrating crimes themselves. This will soon be front and center. I also saw an interview of a local reporter who described mayor Nagan as intricately involved in business dealings in the city, and this individual says Nagan's policies indirectly encourage corruption in the NOPD. The police super is described as reputable - and not involved in this corruption.

So - having said this - I place my bets that Mayor Nagan won't survive the now TWO investigations: Katrina disaster management, and new police corruption. Looks like we will see an intricate investigation into this NO tragedy.
 
  • #37
Astronuc
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Non-scientific poll on AOL about response to Katrina - snapshot today.

How would you rate Bush's handling of Katrina?
Poor 41%
Good 28%
Excellent 17%
Fair 15%
Total Votes: 114,139

How would you rate Brown's handling of Katrina?
Poor 54%
Fair 23%
Good 17%
Excellent 5%
Total Votes: 112,964

How would you rate Blanco's handling of Katrina?
Poor 71%
Fair 19%
Good 8%
Excellent 2%
Total Votes: 112,841

How would you rate Nagin's handling of Katrina?
Poor 69%
Fair 16%
Good 10%
Excellent 4%
Total Votes: 113,286

The closer one is to the situation, the greater the blame, at least from the general public.
 
  • #38
russ_watters
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Astronuc said:
The closer one is to the situation, the greater the blame, at least from the general public.
I don't think that's true at all. I think people tend to pick the person at the top in most cases. This case is an exception but only slightly: Bush/Brown did get virtually all of the initial blame. But now that the dust is settling and people are having another look, they are realizing that while Bush may have seemed aloof, both Nagin and Blanco just completely lost it.

Regarding the police chief, without any statements by him or his superiors about why he quit, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Clearly the police force collapsed, but that may just be a result of the situation being beyond what they were capable of handling.
 
  • #39
SOS2008
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russ_watters said:
I don't think that's true at all. I think people tend to pick the person at the top in most cases. This case is an exception but only slightly: Bush/Brown did get virtually all of the initial blame. But now that the dust is settling and people are having another look, they are realizing that while Bush may have seemed aloof, both Nagin and Blanco just completely lost it.

Regarding the police chief, without any statements by him or his superiors about why he quit, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Clearly the police force collapsed, but that may just be a result of the situation being beyond what they were capable of handling.
This was brought up before at the time of Katrina. The polls never showed Bush getting initial blame, nor would many say that "Nagin and Blanco just completely lost it." as many wonder how many states/cities would fair any better. Here are findings of a poll dated Sept. 12, 2005:
Americans are broadly critical of government preparedness in the Hurricane Katrina disaster — but far fewer take George W. Bush personally to task for the problems, and public anger about the response is less widespread than some critics would suggest.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1
 
  • #40
Astronuc
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russ_watters said:
I don't think that's true at all.
I was reflecting on the statistics which put the blame more on Nagin and Blanco at this point, than on Brown or Bush. But AOL represents a wider audience. I am sure if one were to ask the evacuees from the Superdome, they would be inclined to blame Bush, and perhaps Blance, over Nagin.

russ_watters said:
This case is an exception but only slightly: Bush/Brown did get virtually all of the initial blame. But now that the dust is settling and people are having another look, they are realizing that while Bush may have seemed aloof, both Nagin and Blanco just completely lost it.
It is certainly not clear that Nagin and Blanco lost it. They were apparently meeting with the National Guard, whose barracks had been flooded and equipment destroyed - and waiting on FEMA (an obvious disconnect there).

russ_watters said:
Regarding the police chief, without any statements by him or his superiors about why he quit, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Clearly the police force collapsed, but that may just be a result of the situation being beyond what they were capable of handling.
How about the National Guard who closed themselves off from the public? And how about FEMA which apparently actually and actively prevented aid from getting to the Superdome?!

What force would not collapse in the face of a major flood?

Some 250 police offices went AWOL - and hearings will be held according to officials. Some just lost it, others were probably terrified for the wife and kids, or elderly parents - we just have to wait to find out.
 
  • #41
russ_watters
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Actually, when I said "lost it", I was referring to their composure and their control of their own offices. Nagin was by far the worst of the two, with his cursing and babbling on the air. That isn't leadership and that is likely the reason why opinions of him are so low.

Blanco, I remember not being impressed by her leadership, but I can't remember specific incidents. I'll look it up later if I get a chance.
 
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  • #42
Astronuc
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I imagine that Nagin and Blanco were under a lot of stress - thousands of lives on the line - and no help on the way. Not too many people (mayors, governors and presidents) can maintain composure in that situation - and perhaps without any sleep.

Has anywhere here been in a situation where someone is critically injured - and you try to help - while everyone around you just stands dumbfounded? It ain't fun.
 
  • #43
McGyver
NO Mayor and City Council Must Stand Down, Request Leadership

I now firmly believe NO Mayor Nagan and the city's council members must push for an executive leader (CEO as Congress noted) to be hired to come in and direct the rebuilding efforts - And the present officlas must in turn must stand down and not interfere with that executive leader.

After observing the developments now pre and post Katrina, one fact remains clear: neither the mayor, the city council, or governor's office is equipped with the requisite level of skill and leadership required to rebuild that region. Though the next elections aren't for several months, these leaders need to acknowldege when in over their heads. I truly doubt that even former NY Mayor Guiliani could direct this rebuilding.

NO and area leaders could save face and their political futures by admitting this fact, and requesting outside expert leadership. I'm not talking about FEMA, as FEMA already admitted it is not equipped to direct such an effort.

Take a cue: Stand Down and Request Professional Assistance!
 
  • #44
SOS2008
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Apparently New Orleans is the New El Norte for illegals looking for work. In the meantime, the taxpayers are footing the bill for the displaced while they search for work elsewhere. :bugeye:
 

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