Boeing Keep your seatbelt low and tight in flight, especially when seated next to a plugged door

[morrobay]

Hopefully some folks at the FAA are restoring the fear of God (or the FAA, which is close enough) in them.

Any other manufacturer tried to get away with half this level of negligence and they would have been shut down years ago.

I guess they are getting away with it. We shall see if the DOJ decides to prosecute Boeing for breaching the deferred prosecution agreement next month.But one technical flight pilot who concealed flaws in the MCAS system that resulted in the Max crashes has already been acquitted.

[Post edited by the Mentors]

 

[DaveE]

Hopefully some folks at the FAA are restoring the fear of God (or the FAA, which is close enough) in them.

Any other manufacturer tried to get away with half this level of negligence and they would have been shut down years ago.

Too big to fail, I think.

Plus the FAA would have to admit that they just don't have the regulatory horsepower needed for such complex systems. Everyone thinks Boeing looks bad here, including me. But the FAA looks worse IMO.

 

[morrobay]

"An FAA directive also currently prohibits investigators from concluding whether employees actually engaged in misconduct". ?? https://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/39435

 

[berkeman]

[Post edited by the Mentors]

Just a quick reminder for all to take care not to bring politics or conspiracy theories into this thread. Thank you.

 

[morrobay]

Let us hope that the accountability demanded by the families is realized. Somebody has to do it. https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/...-and-prosecution-of-manufacturers-executives/.

 

[morrobay]

Is anyone surprised by this possibility? https://airwaysmag.com/new-post/boeing-avoid-criminal-prosecution

 

[morrobay]

Shall reserve comment on another sweetheart deal likely.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-wants-boeing-plead-guilty-201111812.html

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Shall reserve comment on another sweetheart deal likely.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-wants-boeing-plead-guilty-201111812.html

It's done
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/08/business/boeing-doj-criminal-charges/index.html

 

[Nik_2213]

A 'Gotcha', IIRC, is that USAF, USMC, NASA etc are not supposed to buy equipment / services from companies with criminal record.
Unless they get a waiver...
And said waiver could include very, very, very strict conditions...

Can't remember the source, but analogies drawn with eg Brewster during WW2, whose organisational and quality flaws resembled wildest Mack Sennett slap-stick comedy...

( Also, IIRC, the similar debacle when much RAF aircraft production was moved to new Nuffield factory: Until the most problematic characters were removed, literally at gun-point, nothing useful was made. It could have lost the war... )

IIRC, Boeing's plea-bargain allows prompt setting of QA/QC requirements that a court trial and appeals unto even SCOTUS could otherwise defer for years and years and years...

 

[Dullard]

According to the article:
"The company avoided another serious penalty — the loss of the right to conduct business with the government."

 

[Flyboy]

I’m not holding my breath on this actually fixing anything.

Properly fixing the cultural and institutional issues plaguing Boeing right now is going to take several years.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It can't change quickly:

(1) The US Government is not going to "destroy Boeing in order to save it".

(2) Firing the leadership isn't going to fix anything, since their replacements come from the same culture.

(3) In the US, it is difficult to prosecute for incompetence. That leaves extradition, which might work to change future behavior, but is also not easy.

 

[morrobay]

This article from The Atlantic describes how Boeing culture distanced itself away
from engineers toward those with mba's This is separate reading away from the justice department giving Boeing two sweetheart deals, in addition to no individuals accountability from criminal negligence. Since the latter cannot be discussed accurately apolitically. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/

 

[Vanadium 50]

Again, in the US idiocy is not a crime.

 

[russ_watters]

(1) The US Government is not going to "destroy Boeing in order to save it".

(2) Firing the leadership isn't going to fix anything, since their replacements come from the same culture.

Maybe it should have. It seems like the changes Boeing needs are radical. Like, fire the top four levels of management and appoint the most senior engineer as CEO radical.

It's wild to me that pilot training and maintenance standardization are the main things keeping Boeing afloat right now. The 737 is almost 60 years old, and only 10 years younger than the original modern airliner, the 707. It's crazy that they are trying to keep it going for half-monopoly reasons. IMO they need to design a new airframe to take them through the next 50 years. Something that makes Southwest and their ilk want to transition to a new airframe.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It's crazy that they are trying to keep it going

Is it?

Their customers like it - in a way they don't like the 727 or 757. And Airbus sells as lot of 320 ± 1 aircraft as well.

A totally new airframe is expensive, as development costs need to be recovered.

It is easier to learn to fly if you are familiar with the previous model. You can say "But this is exactly where they ran into trouble on the MAX", and Boeing would say "Exactly! We ran into trouble where we couldn't make it identical."

The public demands low ticket cost and is starting to demand low carbon emissions. The MAX "gives the people what they want".

I would characterize a number of Boeing's decisions as "short-sighted" but not as "irrational".

 

[DaveE]

The 737 is almost 60 years old

But it has been and continues to be a good aircraft. MCAS was mostly a training issue, it's not that dangerous. Other problems were basically QA, not aircraft issues.

 

[russ_watters]

But it has been and continues to be a good aircraft. MCAS was mostly a training issue, it's not that dangerous.

MCAS was mainly a programming problem. Better training might have been able to overcome it, but the root cause was the program reacting badly to bad information (a failed sensor).

 

[Vanadium 50]

Other problems were basically QA, not aircraft issues.

One can build a good airplane badly, for sure.

 

[morrobay]

This informative post on Reddit by gargravarr2112 shows how Boeing is responsible for the crashes from a series of events relating to the MCAS system. Not really incompetence or criminal negligence. Maybe reckless disregard for safety.

 

[DaveE]

MCAS was mainly a programming problem. Better training might have been able to overcome it, but the root cause was the program reacting badly to bad information (a failed sensor).

MCAS was SW that was created to avoid the additional training that would have been required for pilots to get a new type rating. Then it was so poorly documented that pilots weren't trained to deal with failures (or even know it existed for some). A badly implemented solution to avoid training.

Run-away trim is a failure mode in other aircraft too, and pilots should be trained to recognize and deal with it regardless.

Also a bit of poor system design to rely on a single AOA sensor and then have SW that couldn't recognize non-sensical data.

 

[Flyboy]

Also a bit of poor system design to rely on a single AOA sensor and then have SW that couldn't recognize non-sensical data.

This is my biggest concern about the whole MCAS system… single point failures on a flight control system shouldn’t be acceptable on commercial aircraft. Almost everything else is dual-redundant or better.

The existence of the MCAS is a whole ‘nuther 55-gallon drum of worms from that, and is indicative of a serious cultural and systemic crisis within Boeing.

 

[gmax137]

... MCAS ...

Maybe Boeing should have called Southwest Airline's bluff, and done the right thing. Oops, there I go thinking like an engineer not a beancounter. Mea culpa.

 

[Flyboy]

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2024-07-31-Boeing-Board-Names-Kelly-Ortberg-President-and-CEO

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2024-07-31-Boeing-Board-Names-Kelly-Ortberg-President-and-CEO

Thoughts?

 

[glappkaeft]

Maybe it should have. It seems like the changes Boeing needs are radical. Like, fire the top four levels of management and appoint the most senior engineer as CEO radical.

Having an engineer as a CEO is no panacea. The CEOs when Boeing moved the HQ to Chicago, merged with McDonald Douglas and made a lot of questionable decisions was Philip Condit (Master and PHD in Aeronautical Engineering) and Harry Stonecipher (BA in Physics). The CEO during the 737 Max fiasco was Dennis Muilenburg (master in Aeronautics and Astronautics) although work on the 737 Max was started under his predecessor. Stonecipher started out as a lab technician at GE and the other two worked in engineering at Boeing before going into management.

One of the best CEOs Boeing ever had was William McPherson Allen who ran the company from 1945-68. He was a Harvard lawyer and the only experience he had at Boeing before becoming CEO was as the corporate council on the board. Although he did decline the job at first since he though he was unqualified.

 

[Vanadium 50]

McDonald Douglas

McDonnell. McDonalds makes Happy Meals. (Then again, maybe we've discovered the problem)

 

[Flyboy]

Thoughts?

I think it’s a bandaid solution, and a cosmetic one at that.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The problem with a "reformer" CEO is that the people underneath him who need reforming will want to see him fail, and will do what they can to make that happen. It's the rare one who actually can successfully clean house.

 

[gmax137]

Agree. That can happen even when the new CEO replaces a bunch of direct reports, because *their* direct reports (and so on) are still there. The upper middle management can be devastatingly harmful. And resistant to change.