Boeing Keep your seatbelt low and tight in flight, especially when seated next to a plugged door

[DaveE]

MCAS was mainly a programming problem. Better training might have been able to overcome it, but the root cause was the program reacting badly to bad information (a failed sensor).

MCAS was SW that was created to avoid the additional training that would have been required for pilots to get a new type rating. Then it was so poorly documented that pilots weren't trained to deal with failures (or even know it existed for some). A badly implemented solution to avoid training.

Run-away trim is a failure mode in other aircraft too, and pilots should be trained to recognize and deal with it regardless.

Also a bit of poor system design to rely on a single AOA sensor and then have SW that couldn't recognize non-sensical data.

 

[Flyboy]

Also a bit of poor system design to rely on a single AOA sensor and then have SW that couldn't recognize non-sensical data.

This is my biggest concern about the whole MCAS system… single point failures on a flight control system shouldn’t be acceptable on commercial aircraft. Almost everything else is dual-redundant or better.

The existence of the MCAS is a whole ‘nuther 55-gallon drum of worms from that, and is indicative of a serious cultural and systemic crisis within Boeing.

 

[gmax137]

... MCAS ...

Maybe Boeing should have called Southwest Airline's bluff, and done the right thing. Oops, there I go thinking like an engineer not a beancounter. Mea culpa.

 

[Flyboy]

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2024-07-31-Boeing-Board-Names-Kelly-Ortberg-President-and-CEO

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2024-07-31-Boeing-Board-Names-Kelly-Ortberg-President-and-CEO

Thoughts?

 

[glappkaeft]

Maybe it should have. It seems like the changes Boeing needs are radical. Like, fire the top four levels of management and appoint the most senior engineer as CEO radical.

Having an engineer as a CEO is no panacea. The CEOs when Boeing moved the HQ to Chicago, merged with McDonald Douglas and made a lot of questionable decisions was Philip Condit (Master and PHD in Aeronautical Engineering) and Harry Stonecipher (BA in Physics). The CEO during the 737 Max fiasco was Dennis Muilenburg (master in Aeronautics and Astronautics) although work on the 737 Max was started under his predecessor. Stonecipher started out as a lab technician at GE and the other two worked in engineering at Boeing before going into management.

One of the best CEOs Boeing ever had was William McPherson Allen who ran the company from 1945-68. He was a Harvard lawyer and the only experience he had at Boeing before becoming CEO was as the corporate council on the board. Although he did decline the job at first since he though he was unqualified.

 

[Vanadium 50]

McDonald Douglas

McDonnell. McDonalds makes Happy Meals. (Then again, maybe we've discovered the problem)

 

[Flyboy]

Thoughts?

I think it’s a bandaid solution, and a cosmetic one at that.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The problem with a "reformer" CEO is that the people underneath him who need reforming will want to see him fail, and will do what they can to make that happen. It's the rare one who actually can successfully clean house.

 

[gmax137]

Agree. That can happen even when the new CEO replaces a bunch of direct reports, because *their* direct reports (and so on) are still there. The upper middle management can be devastatingly harmful. And resistant to change.

 

[Vanadium 50]

LBJ once complained that some mid-level bureaucrat was undermining his policies. "Why don't you fire him?" he was asked. Johnson replied, "Fire him? I can't even find him!"

 

[Flyboy]

Yep. It’s going to take one of the most thorough house cleanings in corporate history to truly fix Boeing’s woes. The comparison I would be inclined to use would be “chemotherapy”.

 

[gmax137]

LBJ once complained that some mid-level bureaucrat was undermining his policies. "Why don't you fire him?" he was asked. Johnson replied, "Fire him? I can't even find him!"

Love LBJ stories.

LBJ was getting ready to leave and there were 2 or 3 helicopters spooling up. He was walking towards one when the young Marine stopped him, saying, "you're helicopter is this one over here, sir." LBJ said, "son, they're *all* my helicopters."

 

[Vanadium 50]

Who doesn't like an LBJ story?

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, changes.

 

[DaveE]

The problem with a "reformer" CEO is that the people underneath him who need reforming will want to see him fail, and will do what they can to make that happen. It's the rare one who actually can successfully clean house.

Yes. He's set up to fail, experienced CEO types won't take that job. He needs to clean house, be hated, and fired, to set up the next CEO for rebuilding. OTOH, by our standards, his bank account will do OK, I'm sure. I'm sure he knows this as well as we do.

 

[morrobay]

So it seems only the crash victims families are demanding accountability.https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-737-max-crash-families-204917560.html

 

[Vanadium 50]

He's got to fire a lot of people, and he can't do it all at once. So his challenge is to figure out who needs to go now, and who can go later. Some people would best serve Boeing by having their heads on pikes. Figuring out who is why he gets the big bucks.

 

[Flyboy]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/08/business/boeing-seattle-new-ceo

Well hot damn. We got someone who understands in the big seat.

Maybe there’s hope for the company yet.

 

[DaveE]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/08/business/boeing-seattle-new-ceo

Well hot damn. We got someone who understands in the big seat.

Maybe there’s hope for the company yet.

I think it just means that he understands public and investor relations. This, by it's self only shows that he knows how to look like he's fixing things. Who else is moving? His staff? Doesn't a Boeing VP fly to many locations each year? Don't they have his cell phone number and email? CEO's walking the floor doesn't mean anything unless your name is Hewlett or Packard and you've previously built an organization that reflects those values.

He's buying time with PR stunts while he, hopefully, fixes real problems that will take a lot longer. It's a sound bite press release IMO, that is all.

 

[Borg]

Ortberg said he’d be on the factory floor in Renton, Washington, Thursday, where the company makes its troubled 737 Max line of planes.

If he's willing to listen, the factory floor is the first place he needs to be. You can't hear from the workers from 2300 miles away.

 

[Flyboy]

I think it just means that he understands public and investor relations. This, by it's self only shows that he knows how to look like he's fixing things. Who else is moving? His staff? Doesn't a Boeing VP fly to many locations each year? Don't they have his cell phone number and email? CEO's walking the floor doesn't mean anything unless your name is Hewlett or Packard and you've previously built an organization that reflects those values.

He's buying time with PR stunts while he, hopefully, fixes real problems that will take a lot longer. It's a sound bite press release IMO, that is all.

It’s still an improvement over the last few CEOs. And if it is just a PR stunt to buy time to fix the real issues, that’s fine by me.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Worst case - it's a PR move. That still shows he understands the problem, which is the first step in fixing it.

The next step is to require all the VPs and such who now fly to Seattle do so on a recent Boeing aircraft. That will focus their attention on safety in a hurry.

 

[berkeman]

The next step is to require all the VPs and such who now fly to Seattle do so on a recent Boeing aircraft.

And sit by the plugged doors...

 

[Vanadium 50]

And sit by the plugged doors..

If it's Boeing, I am going, going, gone!

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-...ter-failure-of-key-engine-mounting-structure/

 

[Astronuc]

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-...ter-failure-of-key-engine-mounting-structure/

Reuters reports FAA to inspect Boeing 787 planes after mid-air dive, as 777X tests put on hold after structural damage found
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-faa-adopts-safety-directive-204442367.html

Separately, Boeing said Monday it had halted test flights on its 777-9 that is awaiting certification after a component between the engine and airplane structure was identified as failing to perform during a maintenance check.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/boeings-latest-mishap-cracks-777x-125134825.html

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...787-planes-following-mid-air-dive-2024-08-19/


Motley Fool: Prediction: Boeing Might Sell Its Defense Business
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/prediction-boeing-might-sell-defense-105000069.html

Things are so bad at Boeing Defense, Space, and Security (BDS) that aerospace analyst Chris Quilty of Quilty Space quipped, "I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they spun out or sold the Defense & Space business as a way to mitigate their sprawling problems."

 

[Flyboy]

I think it’s a mixed bag if they split their defense and commercial sides. On the one hand, the defense side is doing reasonably well, with multiple contracts currently being worked to varying degrees of success (glares at KC-46 Pegasus). On the other hand, it’s probably their most successful production division at the moment.

 

[morrobay]

If Boeing is no longer connected to the military industrial complex maybe the Justice department will be more inclined to hold Boeing accountable in the various criminal/civil cases.

 

[Astronuc]

Boeing and Lockheed Martin are in discussions to sell their joint venture, United Launch Alliance (ULA), to Sierra Space, according to sources familiar with the matter. ULA, a key provider of launch services to the U.S. government and a major competitor to SpaceX, could soon shift from being owned by two of the largest defense contractors to a smaller, privately held company.

https://themachinemaker.com/news/bo...-sell-united-launch-alliance-to-sierra-space/

I read about this in a Reuters article.
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...artin-talks-sell-ula-sierra-space-2024-08-16/

 

[berkeman]

Interesting CNN article today with the perspective of one of the pilots flying the plane when the door plug blew:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/12/business/alaska-airlines-pilot-i-was-in-shock/index.html

“I opened the flight deck door. And I saw quiet. Hundreds of eyes staring right back at me. And I looked at my flight attendants and I said, ‘Are you okay?’ And in that response, I heard: ‘hole,’ ‘four, five empty seats’ and ‘injuries.’”

Wiprud said she thought people were blown out of the plane. But the flight crew was quickly able to determine that all passengers and crew were accounted for.

<<snip>>

She said the noise from the air whooshing through the plane was “so incredibly loud,” and, after she put on her oxygen mask, Wiprud said she couldn’t hear anything on her headset. The reason: Her headset was no longer on her head. It had gotten ripped off as the cabin was depressurized.