Lagrangian Function: Defining Potential Energy

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Alaguraja
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Function Lagrangian
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition of potential energy within the context of the Lagrangian function, specifically in relation to kinetic energy and energy conservation principles. Participants explore various interpretations and mathematical formulations of potential energy, as well as its implications in mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that potential energy can be defined mathematically as energy associated with forces dependent on position that can be expressed as a gradient.
  • Another viewpoint posits that potential energy encompasses all forms of energy that are not kinetic, including energy derived from mass-energy equivalence.
  • It is noted that potential energy can be identified through conservation of total energy, highlighting examples such as chemical potential energy in reactions.
  • A participant points out that kinetic and potential energies are not individually conserved, but their sum is, with specific conditions such as circular orbits affecting conservation in orbital mechanics.
  • Another contribution emphasizes a classical perspective on Lagrangian mechanics, introducing generalized forces and their relationship to potential energy through a defined function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definition and implications of potential energy, indicating that multiple competing interpretations exist without a consensus on a singular definition.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve advanced concepts such as Hamiltonian functions and generalized forces, which may not be universally understood among all participants. The definitions and relationships presented depend on specific assumptions and contexts within mechanics.

Alaguraja
Messages
7
Reaction score
1
(L=T-V) In the Lagrangian function we saw to different type of energy conservation's. That is kinetic energy and potential energy. And I have doubt in one topic. How to define potential energy?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
There's at least a couple ways to answer that question.
One mathematical way is that for every force dependent on position expressible as a gradient, there is an associated potential energy.

However, the simplest is to say that potential energy refers to all forms of energy that are not kinetic (yes, really), or due to E_{0}=mc^{2}.
Different forms of potential energy can be discovered by using conservation of total energy, and seeing what's missing (e.g., the potential energy stored in chemical bonds giving rise to explosive chemical reactions).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Alaguraja
In general, kinetic and potential energies are not conserved, only their sum (which is usually equal to the Hamiltonian function) is. For example, if we have a planet or moon orbiting a gravitational center, the kinetic and potential energies are both conserved only if the orbit is a perfect circle (not a general ellipse). Sometimes such an orbital motion system can be describes as two point masses, but in a more advanced treatment we can include the rotational energy of the celestial bodies into the kinetic energy, and also consider the tidal forces that cause a slow loss of potential energy to viscous friction.
 
Alaguraja said:
L=T-V) In the Lagrangian function we saw to different type of energy conservation's. That is kinetic energy and potential energy. And I have doubt in one topic. How to define potential energy?
usually such questions are posed by people who study mechanics by courses of Landau Lifschitz type where the Lagrage equations are derived from the Hamilton variational principle. But if we follow more classical viewpoint then first we get know about so called the Lagrange equations of the second type
$$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q^i}- \frac{\partial T}{\partial q^i}=Q_i,$$ with generalized forces ##Q_i##. By definition these forces are potential provided there exists a function ##V=V(q)## such that $$-\frac{\partial V}{\partial q^i}= Q_i$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K