Late to the game - do I have a shot at a physics PhD?

[plussed]

Late to the game -- do I have a shot at a physics PhD?

Hello!

I've decided that I want to switch careers and work toward a physics PhD (ultimately more interested in research than teaching). Here's my situation: I studied electrical engineering at an ivy league school with a 3.75 GPA. Got my bachelors in 1998 and masters in 1999. But since then I've been doing mostly software development at various places, none of it particularly related to physics or engineering.

Realistically, what are my chances of getting into a graduate program? Do I even have a shot at a school like MIT? I realize that lots of things are working against me. I think I'll need to do pretty well on the GRE (particularly the physics subject test), though this will be a challenge since I'll need to teach myself all the subjects not covered in depth in engineering undergrad (quantum mechanics, relativity, and statistical mechanics at a minimum), plus brush up on everything else. I'm comfortable with self-learning and test-taking though so I'm confident I can do this. Does anyone know how highly schools value GRE scores in picking applicants? What kind of score should I be shooting for?

I'm sure it also doesn't help that I don't really have any research experience. Plus I've been out of school for so long that my letters of recommendation will all come from software people.

So I guess I'm mainly wondering what my chances look like. If anyone has any advice or opinions on the matter, I'd appreciate hearing them...

Thanks for the help.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You don't need to do "pretty well" on the GRE. You need to smoke the GRE. Think 90th percentile. 95th would be better.

Your undergraduate grades are 10-15 years old. That's the equivalent of 3rd grade for traditional applicants. Your letters would be coming from people who have no idea what it takes to succeed in physics graduate school. So the only indicator of how well you might perform is the GRE. It needs to be spectacular.

 

[eri]

The GRE does need to very high for a shot at a top graduate program, but you really don't have many of the courses a physics major would have taken under your belt, and apparently no research experience. Both are going to hurt you when going for a PhD in the first place, much less at a top school. How about taking some classes somewhere first?

 

[twofish-quant]

Realistically, what are my chances of getting into a graduate program?

As of now, it's almost non-existent. With a lot of work, it may be possible. One thing that isn't clear right now is *why* you want to go to physics graduate school. One of the things that I try to do is to talk people out of physics graduate school.

Do I even have a shot at a school like MIT?

Right now, no. Assuming wild luck, it's highly unlikely, but I wouldn't aim for that.

I'd start by getting things to the point that *anyone* will take you.

Does anyone know how highly schools value GRE scores in picking applicants?

General GRE scores are pretty irrelevant. The physics GRE is quite important, but if you have only a good physics GRE score and nothing else, I don't see too many people taking you.

The big thing that I think you will need is recommendations. If you have three physics professors say that you are graduate school material, that will help you get in somewhere.

I'm sure it also doesn't help that I don't really have any research experience. Plus I've been out of school for so long that my letters of recommendation will all come from software people.

The people that you get recommendations from absolutely have to have gone through a Ph.D. program. The main thing that any school is worried about is that they'll admit you and you'll fall apart. If you have recommendations from people that haven't got a Ph.D., then they aren't going to be good judges if whether you will be able to survive the process.

So I guess I'm mainly wondering what my chances look like.

Close to zero.

 

[[Quadratic]]

Twofish-quant, why do you try to talk people out of physics grad school?

 

[Vanadium 50]

It's like converting to Judaism.

 

[eri]

Twofish isn't saying he shouldn't go to grad school, he's saying right now he doesn't have much of a shot at grad school. And he's right. He's missing a lot of the basic courses any physics major should have, has no research experience, has no one to write a good letter for him, and he's aiming for the very top programs. It's completely unreasonable.

 

[MissSilvy]

I don't think Twofish is trying to talk people out of it, just give these thrice-weekly "Can I get into grad school with a engineering/math/English/flower arranging degree?" posters a fair look at how far they have to go. A lot of people who are not in the field underestimate the time and effort it would take to even get into *A* grad school, much less MIT and Caltech.

 

[Fizex]

Is there no shot for him to get a master's in physics? I think that could be a way to get back into graduate studies as the expectations are less and if he is really determined and devoted to go into physics he can pay tuition.

MIT is probably out of the equation though.

 

[twofish-quant]

Twofish-quant, why do you try to talk people out of physics grad school?

Because physics graduate school is a really painful and grueling experience that brings very few material rewards, and I want to make it absolutely clear how hard and painful it is. Most people would be better off not getting a physics Ph.D. You spend X years of your life as an academic serf, and there are no real material rewards that couldn't be gotten easier some other way.

Besides, if you really belong in physics graduate school, the fact that I'm discouraging you won't make a difference.

 

[twofish-quant]

Twofish isn't saying he shouldn't go to grad school, he's saying right now he doesn't have much of a shot at grad school.

1) I don't know about him, so I can't say that he shouldn't go to grad school. However, most people that say they want to go to physics graduate school, probably really shouldn't go.

2) Some people take low/zero probability as a challenge. One reason that I suspect that the OP should reconsider going to grad school is the way that he asked the question. The two questions are "what are my chances of getting into physics grad school? and what are my chances of getting into MIT?"

Those questions worry me because a) the fact that what you do depends on the odds isn't a good sign and b) the fact that the OP cares about getting into a big name school says that you are doing it for reasons that won't work out in the end.

 

[twofish-quant]

I don't think Twofish is trying to talk people out of it

Not true. I am trying to talk him out of it. I try to talk people out of getting their physics Ph.D. For people that are committed enough to make it through the process, my efforts of talking people out of getting their physics Ph.D. won't matter. If my giving a talk on how bad graduate school scares you off, then you aren't going to survive the process itself.

A lot of people who are not in the field underestimate the time and effort it would take to even get into *A* grad school, much less MIT and Caltech.

If getting a physics Ph.D. is the most important thing in the OP's life that he is willing to sacrifice everything to get one, then it can be done, but I don't know if the OP is in that mode.

Graduate schools are looking for serf labor, and with a year or two of work and networking, I think it's quite possible for the OP to get in *somewhere*. The trouble is that getting admitted to graduate school is like finding yourself at the starting line of the Iron Man Triathlon. Your difficulties are just beginning.