Latest on black hole infromation paradox?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the current status of the black hole information paradox, exploring various perspectives and theories regarding the retention or loss of information in black holes. Participants inquire about consensus and recent literature on the topic.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that there is no consensus on the resolution of the black hole information paradox.
  • One viewpoint suggests that the paradox may not exist, comparing it to different observations in relativity, where observers perceive different realities based on their positions.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of "fuzz balls" proposed by Samir Mathur, which are said to address the information paradox by allowing quantum fluctuations at the black hole's event horizon.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of an external observer's perspective, questioning how information is perceived as conserved or lost depending on the observer's frame of reference.
  • Leonard Susskind's views are referenced, particularly his assertion that information cannot be lost behind a black hole horizon, contrasting with Stephen Hawking's earlier positions.
  • Participants express interest in various proposals and papers, indicating a desire for deeper understanding and exploration of the paradox.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that there is no consensus on the black hole information paradox, with multiple competing views and theories being discussed without resolution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of the paradox, with references to various theoretical frameworks and the need for a fuller understanding of the relationship between space and time. Some claims depend on specific interpretations of quantum mechanics and relativity, which remain unresolved.

nrqed
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WHat is the present status about the black hole information paradox?
Is there some consensus?
Could someone recommend good recent papers discussing the current views?

Thanks!


Patrick
 
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Leonard Susskind also has some interesting views...in THE BLACK HOLE WAR he discusses his views in contrast to those of Stephen Hawking...and lots more.

One simple perspective: there is no paradox. If you are outside a black hole you see one thing, if inside, you see another; you can't be both places...so it's analogous to different observers in relativity observing, say, different kinetic energies of an object, or the relativity of simultaneity...or the Unruh effect where an accelerating observer measures a different background temperature than an inertial observer...different observers see different things.

I haven't looked at Demystifier's discussion yet, but in general such "paradoxes" signal to me an underlying lack of some fundamental understanding.

Ok... now I skimmed it and although I can't comment on the math (it's abve my paygrade) I do like the idea that we need a fuller understanding of the relationship between space and time. Other similar hints exist in string theory duality and the holographic principle...our mathematical formulations don't seem quite general enough in scope to properly explain nature...
 
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Naty1 said:
One simple perspective: there is no paradox. If you are outside a black hole you see one thing, if inside, you see another; you can't be both places...so it's analogous to different observers in relativity observing, say, different kinetic energies of an object, or the relativity of simultaneity...or the Unruh effect where an accelerating observer measures a different background temperature than an inertial observer...different observers see different things.

Whats about Birds(Gods) View?
Or, like in Cosmology, where in Birds view (all Unvierse at the "same time") energy is not conserved (while it is conserved for any observer) - is it the same? Information can't be lsot for any observer - but this is not true in the Birds view?

Finally, what happens if external observer waits long enough for BH to evaporate?
 
Dmitry67 said:
Whats about Birds(Gods) View?
Or, like in Cosmology, where in Birds view (all Unvierse at the "same time") energy is not conserved (while it is conserved for any observer) - is it the same? Information can't be lsot for any observer - but this is not true in the Birds view?

Finally, what happens if external observer waits long enough for BH to evaporate?

If Hawking was correct, then HR destroys information, and the "bird" can know what fell into the BH, but not to correlate this with any particular bit of HR. That said, does such a view require that the system be Unitary?
 
Check out http://www.slac.stanford.edu/spires/find/hep/www?eprint=arXiv:1005.3555

Samir Mathur has invented what he calls ``fuzz balls'', which are naturally realized in string theory, and which solve the information paradox. At it's heart, the info paradox arrises because there are no degrees of freedom at the black hole's event horizon. In other words, an in-falling observer sees smooth space-time, with nothing new. If you accept this picture, then Mathur shows that you WILL get an information loss problem (he has elevated it to a theorem). So the only solution is to abandon quantum mechanics (which seems non-sensical), or to allow quantum fluctuations at the horizon. The former approach doesn't seem to have any tangible results, whereas the latter approach (fuzz balls) seems to get you pretty far.
 
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Dmitry67 said:
Whats about Birds(Gods) View?
Or, like in Cosmology, where in Birds view (all Unvierse at the "same time") energy is not conserved (while it is conserved for any observer) - is it the same? Information can't be lsot for any observer - but this is not true in the Birds view?
Well, my proposal that I mentioned above is a kind of the bird proposal. (And no, it does not rest on BM. It is more MWI-like in spirit.) For a simplified explanation of that idea, see also
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0912.1938
 
nrqed said:
Thank you Demystifier for the heads up. And I will look your proposal with keen interest.

Regards,

Patrick
Thanks! I would like to see your opinion.
 
  • #10
Here is the view of Leonard Susskind later in his book THE BLACK HOLE WAR, page 419.

Just two months after Maldacena's (ADs/CFT) paper (Ed) Witten's...paper "Anti De Sitter Space and Holography ...Witten explained that by injecting enough mass and energy into a can (of ADS) a black hole could be created...According the Maldacena there must be a second description ..that makes no reference to the inside of the can...The moment I saw Witten's paper, I knew the Black Hole War was over. Quantum Field Theory is a special case of quantum mechanics and information in quantum mechanics can never be lost. Whatever else Maldacena and Witten had done, they had proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that information would never be lost behind a black hole horizon. The string theorists could understand this immediately; the relativists would take longer.

he continues " Stephan didn't get the point"...me either.

But if anyone knows Witten's and Maldecena's view on the information paradox, and if they both agree with Susskind, that would pretty much clinch it for me.
 

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