Lift, Drag, Magnus, Bernoulli, Tennis ball fuzz, etc.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the physics of lift and drag, particularly in relation to the Magnus effect, the role of dimples on golf balls, and the fuzz on tennis balls. Participants explore qualitative descriptions and seek coherent explanations for these phenomena, touching upon fluid mechanics and aerodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the explanations regarding the effects of dimples on golf balls and fuzz on tennis balls, noting contradictions in the descriptions found.
  • Another participant describes the Magnus effect, explaining that the airflow over a spinning ball behaves differently depending on the direction of spin, which affects the ball's trajectory.
  • A participant references a book, "The Physics of Ball Games" by C.B. Daish, which discusses various aspects of ball physics, including the Magnus effect and flow separation.
  • Further references to literature on the physics of golf are provided, detailing the modeling of golf swings and the impact of golf ball design on performance, including the effects of dimples on aerodynamics.
  • One participant acknowledges their recovery from surgery and thanks others for their contributions, indicating engagement in the discussion despite personal challenges.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the explanations for the phenomena discussed, and multiple competing views and interpretations remain present throughout the thread.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of understanding and familiarity with fluid mechanics, which may influence their interpretations and the coherence of the explanations provided. There are references to specific literature that may contain unresolved assumptions or technical details not fully explored in the discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in the physics of sports, particularly those looking to understand the aerodynamics involved in ball games and the underlying principles of lift and drag.

Trying2Learn
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TL;DR
Can someone advise me?
Hello,

My background is not fluid mechanics. Yet, I am trying, very late in life (near retirement) to understand some things, now that I have time.

I have always been confused about the qualitative descriptions about the role of dimples on golf balls and fuzz on tennis balls. Sometimes,
the explanations seem to contradict each other.

So I put together a document that (I HOPE) explains it.

Would anyone be willing to read this document (it is four pages) and let me know where I go wrong?

I am tired of being confused and in not finding any coherent explanation.

It is attached. I hope to know where I go wrong.
 

Attachments

Physics news on Phys.org
Magnus effect is normally explained by noting that the air flow over the surface that is spinning backwards stays attached longer than the air flow over the surface that is spinning forwards, resulting in the ball diverting the wake in the direction of the spin at the back of the ball, coexistent with the air exerting an equal an opposite force onto the ball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect
 
Years ago I read an excellent book The Physics of Ball Games by CB Daish which discussed all this and more. It analysed golf, table tennis, football, snooker, cricket etc, including Magnus effect, flow separation, centre of percussion etc.

Specialist sellers have it in stock - google the title.
 
Last edited:
Frodo said:
Specialist sellers have it in stock - google the title.
The Physics of Ball Games by C B Daish.
Part 1, a more general treatment of the subject.
Part 2, the full mathematical treatment.

There are three versions listed on https://www.bookfinder.com
1972, Hardcover, 180 pages. ISBN 9780340053997 Pub; English Universities Press.
1972, Part 1 only. Hardcover, ISBN 9780340167229 Pub; English Universities Press.
1981. Parts unspecified. Softcover, ISBN 9780340270622 Pub; Hodder & Stoughton.
 
Also see The physics of golf authored by A Raymond Penner, Physics Department, Malaspina University-College, Nanaimo, British Columbia, V9R 5S5, Canada available at http://raypenner.com/physicsofgolf.html and http://stacks.iop.org/rp/66/131

Abstract

An overview of the application of physics to the game of golf is given. The golf swing is modeled as a double pendulum. This model and its variations have been used extensively by researchers in determining the effect that various swing parameters have on clubhead speed. These results as well as examples of three-link models are discussed. Kinematic and kinetic measurements taken on the recorded downswings of golfers as well as force measurements are reviewed. These measurements highlight differences between the swings of skilled and unskilled golfers.

Several aspects of the behaviour of a golf ball are examined. Measurements and models of the impact of golf balls with barriers are reviewed. Such measurements have allowed researchers to determine the effect that different golf ball constructions have on their launch parameters. The launch parameters determine not only the length of the golf shot but also the behaviour of the golf ball on impact with the turf. The effect of dimples on the aerodynamics of a golf ball and the length of the golf shot is discussed. Models of the bounce and roll of a golf ball after impact with the turf as well as models of the motion of a putted ball are presented.

Researchers have measured and modeled the behaviour of both the shaft and the clubhead during the downswing and at impact. The effect that clubhead mass and loft as well as the shaft length and mass have on the length of a golf shot are considered. Models and measurements of the flexing of the shaft as well as research into the flexing of the clubface and the effects of its surface roughness are presented. An important consideration in clubhead design is its behaviour during off-centre impacts. In line with this, the effects that the curvature of a clubface and the moments of inertia of the clubhead have on the launch parameters and trajectory of an off-centred impacted golf ball are examined.
 
Thank you everyone.

Normally, I say that right away. Unfortunately, surgery intervened. I am out, home and recovering well. Sorry about not thanking every one.
 

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