Limit proofs(indeterminate forms?)

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the convergence of series and the implications of certain conditions on their terms. The original poster presents a series of statements regarding the convergence of sequences and asks for proofs or counterexamples related to these statements.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to prove statements about the convergence of series based on the convergence of related series, particularly focusing on powers of terms. Some participants question the validity of these approaches and suggest considering comparison tests instead.
  • Participants raise concerns about the conditions under which series can converge, particularly questioning the implications of terms not converging to zero.
  • There is a discussion about the root test and its limitations, with some participants suggesting that the original poster may be misunderstanding its application.
  • Questions arise regarding specific examples that could illustrate the boundaries of the conditions presented in statements (c) through (e).

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants providing feedback on the original poster's attempts and suggesting alternative lines of reasoning. There is a clear exploration of different interpretations of the convergence criteria, but no consensus has been reached regarding the validity of the original proofs or the statements themselves.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the original poster's understanding of convergence and the application of tests like the root test may be incomplete. There is also mention of the need for specific examples to clarify the conditions under discussion.

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limit proofs(indeterminate forms??)

Homework Statement



We work in the real numbers. Are the following true or false? Give a proof or counterexample.
(a) If [itex]\sum a^4_n[/itex] converges, then [itex]\sum a^5_n[/itex] converges.
(b) If [itex]\sum a^5_n[/itex] converges, then [itex]\sum a^6_n[/itex] converges.
(c) If [itex]a_n \geq 0[/itex] for all [itex]n[/itex], and [itex]\sum a_n[/itex] converges, then [itex]na_n \rightarrow 0[/itex] as [itex]n \rightarrow \infty[/itex].
(d) If [itex]a_n \geq 0[/itex], for all [itex]n[/itex], and [itex]\sum a_n[/itex] converges, then [itex]n(a_n - a_{n-1}) \rightarrow 0[/itex] as [itex]n \rightarrow \infty[/itex].
(e) If [itex]a_n[/itex] is a decreasing sequence of positive numbers, and [itex]\sum a_n[/itex] converges, then [itex]na_n \rightarrow 0[/itex] as [itex]n \rightarrow \infty[/itex].


Homework Equations





The Attempt at a Solution




(a) and (b) can be proved similarly. Since [itex]\sum a_n^4[/itex] converges, for some [itex]N[/itex], when [itex]n \geq N[/itex], then [itex]a_n^4 < 1[/itex]. Take [itex]\beta[/itex] s.t., [itex]a_n^4 < \beta < 1[/itex]. That is, [itex]a_n < (\beta)^{1/4} < 1[/itex]. Also, [itex]|(\beta)^{1/5}| < 1[/itex]. This implies that [itex]|a_n^5| < 1[/itex] and therefore [itex]\sum |a_n^5|[/itex] converges.

(c) This is where I get confused. THis seems like an indeterminate form, we have never done this in class. same for (d) and (e). any suggestions?
 
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Your proof of (a) doesn't make sense. In order for a series [tex]\textstyle \sum b_n[/tex] to converge, it is not enough that [tex]|b_n| < 1[/tex] for sufficiently large [tex]n[/tex]!

Are you thinking of the root test? If so, there is certainly an exponent missing. But the converse of the root test is false: there are convergent series [tex]\textstyle\sum b_n[/tex] having [tex]|b_n|^{1/n} \to 1[/tex] as [tex]n\to\infty[/tex]. So you can't conclude from the convergence of [tex]\textstyle\sum a_n^4[/tex] anything about the behavior of [tex]|a_n^4|^{1/n}[/tex]. The root test is not useful here.

For (a) and (b) you should be thinking about comparisons. Bear in mind that you are not given that [tex]a_n \geq 0[/tex], so the proof that works for one of (a) and (b) will not necessarily work for the other.

For (c)-(e): The condition [tex]na_n \to 0[/tex] should make you think of a particular series whose behavior you know. Try to modify this series to construct examples that test the boundaries of the conditions here.
 


How does a series converge if its terms do not converge to 0?
 


so does my answer work? or no?
 


ystael said:
Are you thinking of the root test? If so, there is certainly an exponent missing. But the converse of the root test is false: there are convergent series [tex]\textstyle\sum b_n[/tex] having [tex]|b_n|^{1/n} \to 1[/tex] as [tex]n\to\infty[/tex]. So you can't conclude from the convergence of [tex]\textstyle\sum a_n^4[/tex] anything about the behavior of [tex]|a_n^4|^{1/n}[/tex]. The root test is not useful here.

I think you might be mistaken here. Did you mean that there are sequences that where [itex]a_n \rightarrow 0[/itex] but [itex]\sum a_n[/itex] doesn't converge? such as [itex]\sum \frac{1}{n}[/itex]
 


mynameisfunk said:
I think you might be mistaken here. Did you mean that there are sequences that where [itex]a_n \rightarrow 0[/itex] but [itex]\sum a_n[/itex] doesn't converge? such as [itex]\sum \frac{1}{n}[/itex]

No, I meant precisely what I said: there are convergent series whose convergence is not detected by the root test, so the converse of the root test is false. [tex]\sum\frac1{n^2}[/tex] is one; it converges by comparison to the telescoping series [tex]\sum\frac1{n(n+1)}[/tex], but [tex]|n^{-2}|^{1/n} \to 1[/tex] as [tex]n\to\infty[/tex].
 


mynameisfunk said:
so does my answer work? or no?

No. As I said, your argument for (a) establishes only that [tex]|a_n^5| < 1[/tex] for all sufficiently large [tex]n[/tex], which is very far from sufficient for convergence.
 

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