Link between the length of duration of El Nino and when the next El Nino occurs

  • Thread starter Thread starter verdigris
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Length Link
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the duration of El Niño events and the timing of subsequent occurrences, as well as the mechanisms behind the warming of ocean waters during these events. It includes theoretical considerations, observational data, and speculative ideas regarding the ocean-atmosphere interactions involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether there is a link between the length of El Niño events and the timing of the next occurrence.
  • There are inquiries into the mechanisms that cause ocean warming during El Niño, including potential contributions from solar heating, air circulation, and ocean currents.
  • One participant suggests that the oscillations between El Niño and La Niña events indicate a lack of a stable middle ground, emphasizing the complexity of the ocean-atmosphere system.
  • Another participant describes the propagation of warm water during El Niño events and the role of Kelvin and Rossby waves in this process.
  • There is a claim that the sea is primarily heated by the sun, while circulating air does not contribute heat but rather allows for heat loss to the atmosphere.
  • A theoretical perspective is presented that seas can become hotter if cold water is removed, with a mention of cooling through evaporation as a reverse process.
  • A later reply raises a question about the implications of sea currents on climate, particularly in relation to glacial transitions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the mechanisms of ocean warming and the relationship between El Niño events, leading to a lack of consensus on these topics. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference complex interactions in the ocean-atmosphere system and the chaotic nature of El Niño events, indicating that the discussion is limited by the current understanding of these processes.

verdigris
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Is there a link between the length of duration of El Nino and when the next El Nino event occurs.Also,what causes the sea to get so warm during an El Nino event - is the sea heated directly by the sun,does it get heat from circulating air,or does it get heat from currents of water bringing it in?
Can the seas become hotter because cold air or water has been moved out of a region?
 
Earth sciences news on Phys.org
Consult some literature on El nino and la nina. There even are speculations on non-linearity of the process and chaotic behavior. Do not forget we talk about coupled processes, its not going to be "push here and pull there" causation.

Most of the principal qualitative features of the El Niño—Southern Oscillation phenomenon can be explained by a simple but physically motivated theory. These features are the occurrence of sea-surface warmings in the eastern equatorial Pacific and the associated trade wind reversal; the aperiodicity of these events; the preferred onset time with respect to the seasonal cycle; and the much weaker events in the Atlantic and Indian oceans. The theory, in its simplest form, is a conceptual model for the interaction of just three variables, namely near-surface temperatures in the east and west equatorial ocean and a wind-driven current advecting the temperature field. For a large range of parameters, the model is naturally chaotic and aperiodically produces El Niño—like events. For a smaller basin, representing a smaller ocean, the events are proportionally less intense. [El Niño: A Chaotic Dynamical System?
GEOFFREY K. VALLIS 1 ]
 
verdigris said:
Is there a link between the length of duration of El Nino and when the next El Nino event occurs.Also,what causes the sea to get so warm during an El Nino event - is the sea heated directly by the sun,does it get heat from circulating air,or does it get heat from currents of water bringing it in?
Can the seas become hotter because cold air or water has been moved out of a region?


As I understand it you have oscillations, there are either El Nino events or La Nina events, there is no middle ground (of course this is simply by definition and is based on the Southern Oscillation Index - meterological measurements made in northern Australia and Tahiti), no two events are exactly the same. These oscillations are perturbations in the ocean-atmosphere system, it is not understood whether the perturbations originate in the atmosphere or the ocean.

During an El Nino event, a depression in the thermocline caused by anomalously high pressure in the atmosphere over Indonesia propagates eastwards along the equator as a series of Kelvin waves. Effectively the warm water travels eastwards along the equator and then spreads out along the coastline of America (and is reflected into the eastern Pacific by Rossby waves), this warm water is confined to the surface.

During an El Nina event, the warm waters are confined to the west, this allows for more upwelling of the nutrient rich waters along the western coast of america and is associated with a richer ecosystem and better fishing.


Yes the sea is heated by the sun
No it doesn't get heat from circulating air, rather it loses heat to the atmosphere.
Currents just move the heat, they neither create or destroy it.

Theoretically yes seas can become hotter if the cold water is removed; on a side note, the reverse process happens when the faster molecules are removed by evaporation, the water cools down.
 
Wouldn't the strong implications of sea currents on climate be a very strong hint to what happened during the glacial transitions?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
13K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
7K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
13K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K