Louisiana JP Refuses Interracial Marriage License

[lisab]

I wonder, does he also refuse to marry people with red hair or freckles?

Kids with red hair or freckles tend to be teased in school so he should at all cost prevent them from being born

Ah but, as I'm sure your'e aware, it's a recessive trait...redheads can "pop up" unexpectedly in families that haven't seen a redhead in many generations! Banning redheads from marrying wouldn't prevent them from being born. Well not for a while, at least .

But seriously, as far as I know, a JP must carry out their duty without judgement. This guy clearly won't do that, so he has to go.

 

[Evo]

Sorry, but I believe it 100%. Nobody has yet given any evidence that this JP is racist, so I'll continue to assume that he denied to marry the couple because of the reasons he stated.

Doesn't matter what his reasons are, his job is to marry the people that request it. His job does not allow for personal opinion, he's a public servant. He has refused to do his job.

 

[lisab]

Sorry, but I believe it 100%. Nobody has yet given any evidence that this JP is racist, so I'll continue to assume that he denied to marry the couple because of the reasons he stated.

OK, for the sake of argument, let's assume he's not racist.

But people who want to marry, and who can be legally married to each other...those people have a right to be married - period. If the JP's excuse for not marrying this couple was "The moon is in the wrong phase," he would still be guilty of not carrying out his duties. When it comes to marrying people, a JP is a rubber-stamp bureaucrat, not a sentinel posted at the gates of matrimony.

Edit: Evo said basically the same thing, but she said it more succinctly, faster, more compactly, and with fewer words

 

[Jasongreat]

Man's halt of interracial marriage sparks outrage
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091017/ap_on_re_us/us_interracial_rebuff

I believe the state reserves the right to regulate contracts like marriage within their borders. The Federal government ensures, in theory, that the state, or county/town/city governments therein, do not discriminate against individuals.

How can the states have a right to regulate if the regulation is conditional on the central governments ok? It seems to me that they only have an imaginary right to regulate, since it ultimately depends on the central governments concurrence to have any affect. One thing I am having trouble answering is, since it was the states that gave birth to the central government how can the central government now have total control of what happens in the states? It seems to me it is kind of like an employer hiring an employee and then allowing the employee to tell the employer how to run things.

It's interesting to see the debate about State's rights/jurisdiction vs Federal jurisdiction in light of the context of a local JoP who willfully discriminates based on peoples' race. Of course, biracial couples can choose an alternative.[/

QUOTE]

The JoP in the article has been voted in by the community he is serving for the last 34 years, and in that time no one has even thought bad enough of what he is doing to run against him nor has anyone in the community tried to have him removed. In the article it states that since he was voted in it is his duty to represent every one in his area, I would argue that it is his duty to represent those that voted him in and it seems they have been content with what he was doing or he wouldn't have served for 34 years. By using the authors line of reasoning I guess we will be seeing tax breaks coming from democrats and gay rights legislation coming from republicans, although I won't hold my breath till that happens since I understand that people that are voted for are serving the voters that voted for them and not the ones that didnt.
This kind of situation is the whole point of the states right argument, a locality can vote to run the locality any way it seems fit but it will be contained to that locality allowing people to leave and find another locality that believes similarily as they do. When the discrimination comes from the central government, where are they going to go? Affirmative action is a racist law(promotes one race over another based on nothing but race) and it is a product of the central government so it affects everyone in the US, yet this judges actions only affects a very small segment of one state, leaving the majority of the state un touched as well as the other 49 states. So which is the better option, neither will completely eliminate discrimination, locallized discrimination or nationalized?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ah but, as I'm sure your'e aware, it's a recessive trait...redheads can "pop up" unexpectedly in families that haven't seen a redhead in many generations! Banning redheads from marrying wouldn't prevent them from being born. Well not for a while, at least .

I would certainly rue the day that redheads and freckles were made illegal. They're so damn sexy.

But seriously, as far as I know, a JP must carry out their duty without judgement. This guy clearly won't do that, so he has to go.

A justice of the peace is a sort of judge and so he has authority to pass judgment. Its the peculiarity of laws which require marriage licenses which land couples who wish to get married before JoPs. In this particular capacity he should have no authority to deny a license unless some law or other is being broken in which case he is free to 'judge' this application invalid, the same as any notary public its more of a responsibility than an authority. He is obviously not basing his decision on any law though so it should not be proper. I am unaware of the laws for the particular area and what is or is not expected of JoPs there. Apparently in certain states a JoP can refuse to marry same sex couples even though it is other wise legal. This seems like a politically motivated exception though and really oughtn't hold up to a logical and consistent application of law. While a notary in some states may be contracted for hire, and so legally allowed to refuse to do business with whom ever they choose, any public servant in this capacity should not be allowed the ability to make such choices.

 

[Evo]

Man's halt of interracial marriage sparks outrage
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091017/ap_on_re_us/us_interracial_rebuff



How can the states have a right to regulate if the regulation is conditional on the central governments ok? It seems to me that they only have an imaginary right to regulate, since it ultimately depends on the central governments concurrence to have any affect. One thing I am having trouble answering is, since it was the states that gave birth to the central government how can the central government now have total control of what happens in the states? It seems to me it is kind of like an employer hiring an employee and then allowing the employee to tell the employer how to run things.


QUOTE]

The JoP in the article has been voted in by the community he is serving for the last 34 years, and in that time no one has even thought bad enough of what he is doing to run against him nor has anyone in the community tried to have him removed. In the article it states that since he was voted in it is his duty to represent every one in his area, I would argue that it is his duty to represent those that voted him in and it seems they have been content with what he was doing or he wouldn't have served for 34 years. By using the authors line of reasoning I guess we will be seeing tax breaks coming from democrats and gay rights legislation coming from republicans, although I won't hold my breath till that happens since I understand that people that are voted for are serving the voters that voted for them and not the ones that didnt.
This kind of situation is the whole point of the states right argument, a locality can vote to run the locality any way it seems fit but it will be contained to that locality allowing people to leave and find another locality that believes similarily as they do. When the discrimination comes from the central government, where are they going to go? Affirmative action is a racist law(promotes one race over another based on nothing but race) and it is a product of the central government so it affects everyone in the US, yet this judges actions only affects a very small segment of one state, leaving the majority of the state un touched as well as the other 49 states. So which is the better option, neither will completely eliminate discrimination, locallized discrimination or nationalized?

A JOP position is so low, that unless the guy was a convicted pedophile, it's unlikely that any notice would be taken of him. He probably ran unopposed all of these years and no one specfically "voted" for him, they just went down the line of people on the ballot. It wasn't that they specifically voted for him, he was automaticcaly voted in.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

You need to learn to use the quote function properly Jason. ;-)

How can the states have a right to regulate if the regulation is conditional on the central governments ok? It seems to me that they only have an imaginary right to regulate, since it ultimately depends on the central governments concurrence to have any affect. One thing I am having trouble answering is, since it was the states that gave birth to the central government how can the central government now have total control of what happens in the states? It seems to me it is kind of like an employer hiring an employee and then allowing the employee to tell the employer how to run things.

It is a hierarchal order. The Fed is to insure the general rights and welfare of the population as a whole leaving further specification of circumstance to lower levels in the hierarchy. I would say that not allowing discrimination based on race is sufficiently generalized and promoting of the general welfare and rights of all citizens to fall in the domain of the federal government.

The JoP in the article has been voted in by the community he is serving for the last 34 years, and in that time no one has even thought bad enough of what he is doing to run against him nor has anyone in the community tried to have him removed. In the article it states that since he was voted in it is his duty to represent every one in his area, I would argue that it is his duty to represent those that voted him in and it seems they have been content with what he was doing or he wouldn't have served for 34 years.

He must represent everyone not just those who voted for him. And the opinion of voters should have nothing to do with anyone's rights in regard to their own person life such as whom they choose to marry. A judge is a judge and must only and always uphold the law equitably. He is not a politician. This was actually the subject of a book by Grisham, who is from Louisiana, lamenting the political nature of the life of judges who are elected to the bench in places like Louisiana.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I don't do interracial marriages because I don't want to put children in a situation they didn't bring on themselves. I feel the children will later suffer.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/16/louisiana-bardwell-interracial-marriage-licence"

Mr. Bardwell is the JP in question. He dispenses or denies his services on the basis of race. That makes him a racist.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Based on this Supreme Court case, I think that the JP's action leaves him vulnerable to a lawsuit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia"

 

[Hurkyl]

Mr. Bardwell is the JP in question. He dispenses or denies his services on the basis of race. That makes him a racist.

If you want to get technical, simply noticing someone's race makes you a racist.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

If you want to get technical, simply noticing someone's race makes you a racist.

I disagree. In my opinion, it has to rise to the level of action taken. You can't tell what other people notice unless you see them act on it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/16/louisiana-bardwell-interracial-marriage-licence"

Mr. Bardwell is the JP in question. He dispenses or denies his services on the basis of race. That makes him a racist.

Racism usually means that one sees one race as either superior or inferior or is otherwise possessed of intolerance for certain races. Being against interracial marriage does not necessarily treat race inequitably. Though I would agree that in general it helps reinforce a racist ideology.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Being against interracial marriage does not necessarily treat race inequitably.

This was the decision of the Supreme Court in 1883 in the case of Pace vs Alabama, which upheld a conviction for interracial sex. They ruled that the criminalization of interracial sex was not a violation of the equal protection clause because whites and non-whites were punished in equal measure for the offense of engaging in interracial sex. I have taken this from the wiki article I linked to above. I consider it a smarmy way to justify racism.

 

[Jasongreat]

A JOP position is so low, that unless the guy was a convicted pedophile, it's unlikely that any notice would be taken of him. He probably ran unopposed all of these years and no one specfically "voted" for him, they just went down the line of people on the ballot. It wasn't that they specifically voted for him, he was automaticcaly voted in.

I think that it did mention in the article that he has been running unopposed all these years, so IMO the fault lays with the citizenery for not vetting their choice properly, not with the judge that is acting in a way he believes is just.

 

[Evo]

I think that it did mention in the article that he has been running unopposed all these years, so IMO the fault lays with the citizenery for not vetting their choice properly, not with the judge that is acting in a way he believes is just.

He's not a judge, he's basically no more than a court clerk. It seems this couple is the first to complain, so no one knew. And now that he's been reported, the people want him out. It's not a case of the public knowing what he was doing and condoning it.

 

[Jasongreat]

You need to learn to use the quote function properly Jason. ;-)

If that's an order, I refuse. If it is a friendly request, I would be glad to but I will need some help since I didnt realize I was doing anything wrong until this mention by you. Just send me a PM telling me what I am doing wrong and how to correct it and it will cease.

It is a hierarchal order. The Fed is to insure the general rights and welfare of the population as a whole leaving further specification of circumstance to lower levels in the hierarchy. I would say that not allowing discrimination based on race is sufficiently generalized and promoting of the general welfare and rights of all citizens to fall in the domain of the federal government.

It seems to me the order has become backwards from what it was originally. The founders ideas were revolutionary since they felt all power came from the bottom up, that is the people gave the government the power they could use. While other modes of government up until that time felt that rights flowed from the top down, that is the only rights the people had was what the government said they were entitled to. Our Federal government was set up to insure individual rights by protecting each state from foreign or domestic(other states) usurptation of their rights. Not until our Federal government was switched to a national government by lincoln did the central government get so involved. While I agree that race discrimination isn't right the national government doesn't feel that way, it seems to me that they believe that discrimination is a valid way to better society.

He must represent everyone not just those who voted for him. And the opinion of voters should have nothing to do with anyone's rights in regard to their own person life such as whom they choose to marry. A judge is a judge and must only and always uphold the law equitably. He is not a politician. This was actually the subject of a book by Grisham, who is from Louisiana, lamenting the political nature of the life of judges who are elected to the bench in places like Louisiana.[/

QUOTE]

IMO it is absolutely impossible to represent everyone, but you can represent the majority and the best that could be acheived is a super majority but never everyone however the smaller the number you are working with the easier a bigger percentage would be and that is why I believe local governments are better equiped for making the laws that pertain to behavior. I agree completely with your statement about people not voting on rights however that is not the country we are living in right now(the bigger the national government gets the worst it is), it seems that is all we do anymore is vote away other peoples rights. I think in most cases a judge has to have legal training(a lawyer), but this JoP is only a pseudo judge and that is why JoP's have a very limited selection of cases they can hear. I think what you said about voting for judges is true, look at the supreme court, our founders felt the same way it seems. So even though what the JoP did was wrong IMO it is more the fault of the system(voting for judges) or the citizenery(voting without vetting) than it is him since he was following his conscience according to him(trying to save mixed race kids the torment). I did see a show once where the were interviewing mixed race kids and a lot of them said it was worse than being a pure race because they were outcasts everywhere. They didnt fit in with the white kids, or the black kids since they were essentially both but at the same time weren't one or the other.

 

[Zantra]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

Let's assume that we take his statement at face value. It's still both immoral and illegal for him to deny an application even IF he has good intentions.

People want to focus on his justification but it's not a justification at all. It's still someone overstepping their bounds to impose their beliefs and will on someone else. Even if interracial children DO have a difficult time, it's simply racism vieled in misplaced altruism. It's this type of persistent behavior that holds society back from true integration. People have moved from blantant racism to passive aggressive racism for the greater good. "oh it's in their best interests not to do this", while deep down someone's whistling dixie and flying the confederate flag in their heart.

I think we have another generation or two before we can completely eradicate this kind of thinking. Still too many "good ole boys" around remembering the "gold old days".

 

[Monique]

Ah but, as I'm sure your'e aware, it's a recessive trait...redheads can "pop up" unexpectedly in families that haven't seen a redhead in many generations! Banning redheads from marrying wouldn't prevent them from being born. Well not for a while, at least .

But if both partners have red hair, their kids would have a 100% chance of also getting red hair and being the outcasts of society.

The only way we can safe the fate of these children is to let them form their own social group (it will contribute to heterogeneity as well), I say: from now on we should only allow people with red hair to marry with a spouse with red hair. Other classes of hair color won't be allowed to marry until the offspring of redheads have reached a critical mass of acceptance.

 

[qspeechc]

My mother is black and my father is white, and I would pretty much agree that I don't fit in anywhere. Not with the white people, not with the black people, not anywhere. But that's no reason to prevent inter-racial marriages. The fact that I don't fit in anywhere probably is mostly my fault, or maybe people really are racist like that, I don't know, anyway, you can't make inter-racial marriages illegal. It is a right to marry whoever you like. The government or anyone else shouldn't be telling you who you can marry (well, within reason, I mean you can't marry children or animals. Homosexual marriages are fine).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

My mother is black and my father is white ...

If you are not already married, then you are going to face a problem. Mr. Bardwell won't marry you to anybody.

 

[BobG]

By the way, I was referring to the "Justice" as a "waste of air." JoP's are NOT judges, they are private citizens with a plaque.

But are they really "Public Officials"? Is this guy appointed? Elected? It might be different there, I suppose, but around here ANYone can be a "justice of the peace." Take a quick test, get a certificate, sign a pledge and now you can marry people. You can find a JoP and NP at any bank or legal institution, since secretaries often get this certificate to cut through minor legal business quickly. When I see people who have this title as their job, it brings up this irrational fury.

The concept of this position is absurd and that's the source of my irritation: How can this legal "position" that requires the least amount of preparation and education get the same title as being on the highest court in the land? An entry-level secretary at a semi-reputable law firm must need greater knowledge of law than is necessary to be a JoP. Why do societies still feel that a JoP is needed for marriage? Just go to city hall if you don't want to do the church thing.

The hooplah over this idiot with an embosser only lends credibility to his "position" which makes some people feel much more important than they actually are.

Again, if it is different there, and the people can't go next door to the next guy with a stamp, then there is a problem that needs to be corrected. Otherwise, he should wallow.[/rant]

Edit:
I suppose if this "hooplah" moves society toward ending this absurdity as a whole, then it's for the better. Silver lining, folks, silver lining.

You're correct about Justice of the Peace in general. There aren't very many states that still have JoP and they have authority over minor civil matters in the states where they do.

Louisiana is an exception to a certain extent (in fact, Louisiana tends to be the exception to many things commonly related with the 20th century). Their Justice of Peace are actually elected. You have to have a high school diploma and be able to read and write in English to be eligible to run for Justice of the Peace (that's a pretty high standard considering a high school diploma is not required to run for governor - or pretty low when compared to the requirements for a judge in the city court).
http://www.sos.louisiana.gov/Portals/0/elections/pdf/QualificationsRev.9-09.pdf

They still only have authority for minor civil matters. They're almost to judges what teaching assistants are to teachers.

http://www.courtreference.com/Louisiana-Courts.htm

Louisiana Justice of the Peace Courts
Justice of the Peace Courts have limited civil and criminal jurisdiction that may vary by court.

Criminal cases generally handled by Justice of the Peace Courts include preliminary hearings for most criminal cases and litter violations, and may include other types of violations and non-felony criminal cases.

Justice of the Peace Courts share limited jurisdiction over some civil cases with District Courts, including some general civil cases within financial limits.

Justice of the Peace Courts do not have jurisdiction over certain types of cases, including probate matters, cases where the State or political subdivision is a defendant, cases where title to real estate is an issue, and other types of cases as defined by law.

 

[BobG]

If you are not already married, then you are going to face a problem. Mr. Bardwell won't marry you to anybody.

Actually, Mr. Bardwell referred them to the 6th Ward's Justice of the Peace, Terri Crosby, who did sign the marriage license.

What the JoP did was wrong, but don't blow it out of proportion to suggest he actually prevented people from getting married.

In his own frame of reference, he probably considered his actions similar to pharmacists that refuse to administer prescriptions that violate their own personal religious or ethical beliefs (not that that is necessarily an acceptable practice, either - if your beliefs conflict with your profession, it might be a good idea to change professions).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Actually, Mr. Bardwell referred them to the 6th Ward's Justice of the Peace, Terri Crosby, who did sign the marriage license.

No, he didn't refer them.

No one told Humphrey she and her boyfriend could not get married, Bardwell said. He said his wife even suggested she see Justice of the Peace Terri Crosby of Tickfaw, which Humphrey said she did and Crosby agreed to sign the license.

http://www.hammondstar.com/articles/2009/10/15/top_stories/8847.txt"

 

[ideasrule]

Even if interracial children DO have a difficult time, it's simply racism vieled in misplaced altruism. It's this type of persistent behavior that holds society back from true integration. People have moved from blantant racism to passive aggressive racism for the greater good. "oh it's in their best interests not to do this", while deep down someone's whistling dixie and flying the confederate flag in their heart.

If you start with the assumption that this "racism vieled in misplaced altruism" is not true altruism, then explain away the factual accuracy of the "racist" arguments by saying they're whistling dixie "deep down", you've made your assumption unfalsifiable. No experiment in the world can disprove your notion that despite showing no signs of racism, despite using factually valid arguments for the greater good, and despite having black friends, people like Baldwell are actually racist.

 

[Virtuous]

What I don't understand is why this method has been used for so long? I apologize I am ignorant, isn't there a separation from state and religion? How is that marriage has anything to do with the church? It would make far more sense to have government deal solely with legal issues since they create the rights and such. Once that process is done it's up to the couple as to how they like to celebrate their "unity". Same respects, it's up to the church or organization as to whether they will allow said celebration. There will never be a perfect system that makes everyone happy but that's the most logical way to go about it, I am surprised it's still the way it is.

 

[Mattara]

What I don't understand is why this method has been used for so long? I apologize I am ignorant, isn't there a separation from state and religion? How is that marriage has anything to do with the church? It would make far more sense to have government deal solely with legal issues since they create the rights and such. Once that process is done it's up to the couple as to how they like to celebrate their "unity". Same respects, it's up to the church or organization as to whether they will allow said celebration. There will never be a perfect system that makes everyone happy but that's the most logical way to go about it, I am surprised it's still the way it is.

Church/State separation is mostly on paper.

 

[Hurkyl]

It's still both immoral and illegal for him to deny an application even IF he has good intentions.

What are you talking about? Denying marriage licenses when there's good reason his duty. The controversy is because people believe the reason wasn't good.


I agree that the person in the opening post is a likely either stupid or a racist in the negative sense. (Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity)

The thing that frightens me is that people seem to have forgotten why racism was generally a bad thing. Some people aren't objecting on the grounds they think the JOP is prejudiced, nor are they objecting on the grounds they think the JOP used race inappropriately in decision making -- they're objecting simply because the JOP mentioned race at all.

 

[Monique]

No experiment in the world can disprove your notion that despite showing no signs of racism, despite using factually valid arguments for the greater good, and despite having black friends, people like Baldwell are actually racist.

He discriminates based on race without looking at the individuals, how would you call that? How do you call someone who has a problem with people from interracial descent and thus wishes that they do not exist? Someone who thinks in black and white? Would racialist or racial separatist be a better description?

 

[ideasrule]

He discriminates based on race without looking at the individuals, how would you like to call that?

Bardwell said he asks everyone who calls about marriage if they are a mixed race couple. If they are, he does not marry them, he said.

I call it treating people of different races differently. If I buy sunscreen for my white friends but not my black friends, that would be treating the races differently, but not unfairly. Racists, by definition, believe that one race is superior; believing that two races are different isn't enough.

 

[Monique]

I call it treating people of different races differently. If I buy sunscreen for my white friends but not my black friends, that would be treating the races differently, but not unfairly. Racists, by definition, believe that one race is superior; believing that two races are different isn't enough.

Sorry, my post-edit crossed with your reply. To repeat:

How do you call someone who has a problem with people from interracial descent and thus wishes that they do not exist? Someone who thinks in black and white? Would racialist or racial separatist be a better description?