Magnet repulsive force -- how long does it last?

  • Thread starter cel123456
  • Start date
  • #36
JackCatDaily
6
5
As we know the magnet will stop to repel each other after some time, is there any formulae to calculate when it will stop? From common sense, how long magnet will stop repel each other? 1years?
Sounds like you are asking if there is an energy drain in the magnets that will eventually lead to a demagnetized state of the magnets. Magnets are perpetual—never dying—unless some outside influence changes them.
 
  • #37
snorkack
1,869
343
Sounds like you are asking if there is an energy drain in the magnets that will eventually lead to a demagnetized state of the magnets. Magnets are perpetual—never dying—unless some outside influence changes them.
The point is, there is an energy drain. Magnetization is a store of energy. There are processes which convert magnetization energy into heat. So the question is, are there any quantitative expressions for the speed of spontaneous demagnetization?
 
  • #38
mitochan
294
133
So the question is, are there any quantitative expressions for the speed of spontaneous demagnetization?
Statistical mechanics say it is the factor of
[tex]e^{\frac{-E_g}{k_BT}}[/tex]
where E_g is an energy gap to overcome potential peaks to other states.
 
  • Like
Likes Keith_McClary
  • #39
paradisePhysicist
143
18
Also, if you point the magnets in the same direction as the Earths magnetic field, they should (theoretically) last longer. The website Keith_Mclary posted said magnets should be stored in the same direction as nearby magnets.
 
  • #40
Keith_McClary
Gold Member
722
1,437
The website Keith_Mclary posted said magnets should be stored in the same direction as nearby magnets.
I think it means the opposite:
Keep the magnets attracting in a row, and where the rows are attracting
 
  • #41
sophiecentaur
Science Advisor
Gold Member
27,735
6,300
Also, if you point the magnets in the same direction as the Earths magnetic field, they should (theoretically) last longer.
You need to be realistic about this. The 'rules' for looking after permanent magnets were formulated when the best we could do involved using a suitable steel alloy and a suitable shape (such as a horseshoe. Keepers and proper storage boxes were important. Nowadays, we have fantastically strong PMs, made from fancy alloys and they can be used for decades (centuries?) for simple jobs like door catches, without needing special storage with keepers

But all this depends on what a magnet is to be used for. If a permanent magnet is ever to be used in a measurement process then some calibration could be needed. (Analogue meters for instance depend on the field inside to be unchanging.) As with al Engineering, the numbers count and you'd need to do much better than use a word like "last".

I trawled around for some hard facts about this. Most manufacturers are a bit vague but I did find this link which says 5% loss in 100 years for a neodymium magnet. If my old Avometer was 5% out after 100 years, I wouldn't feel too bad about it (but it won't have a neodymium magnet in it, of course).

Feel free to trawl for your own information.
 
  • Informative
Likes Keith_McClary
  • #42
paradisePhysicist
143
18
You need to be realistic about this. The 'rules' for looking after permanent magnets were formulated when the best we could do involved using a suitable steel alloy and a suitable shape (such as a horseshoe. Keepers and proper storage boxes were important. Nowadays, we have fantastically strong PMs, made from fancy alloys and they can be used for decades (centuries?) for simple jobs like door catches, without needing special storage with keepers
Every little thing helps. For instance, the solar panels are said to be good for 25 years. If we could increase that to 27 years that is a worthwhile improvement.
But all this depends on what a magnet is to be used for. If a permanent magnet is ever to be used in a measurement process then some calibration could be needed. (Analogue meters for instance depend on the field inside to be unchanging.) As with al Engineering, the numbers count and you'd need to do much better than use a word like "last".

I trawled around for some hard facts about this. Most manufacturers are a bit vague but I did find this link which says 5% loss in 100 years for a neodymium magnet. If my old Avometer was 5% out after 100 years, I wouldn't feel too bad about it (but it won't have a neodymium magnet in it, of course).

Feel free to trawl for your own information.
I guess my question is, did they actually store a neodymium magnet for 100 years or just measured it for a few years and assumed a linear movement? There are a lot of variables influencing the age of magnet such as North pole shifting, random solar bursts of radiation and other things. I have no idea how much the North pole effects magnets, I guess you would have to sit a bunch of magnets (8 per direction, and then 4 different types of magnets) in the same room as other magnets in different directions (20 id say, in total 640 magnets) then measure the magnetism after 100 years, as well as making sure the room is/was temperature uniform throughout all areas.

I think it means the opposite:
Not sure I understand, the website says to keep the magnets attracting, which is what I suggested.
 
  • #43
sophiecentaur
Science Advisor
Gold Member
27,735
6,300
Not sure I understand, the website says to keep the magnets attracting, which is what I suggested.
Whatever you meant in your description, you implied they would 'all' be side by side, pointing in the same direction. That's where the 'wrong' comment came from. Diagrams are always a good idea, even if they're a pain to insert into a post. " NSNSNSNS" could have made it clear. You suggested they should all point to the North Pole, which is NNNNNNN. SSSSSSSS.
 
  • Like
Likes Keith_McClary
  • #44
snorkack
1,869
343
The thing is that the hysteresis loop with its features like remanence and coercivity is a short term one - it will shrink over time spontaneously.
If you put a magnetized magnet into no magnetic field, its magnetization is a store of energy and dissipates over time. If you put the magnet into the original magnetizing field then the magnetization is the lowest energy state and stays forever, or builds up if missing. If you put it in field weaker than the original magnetizing field but in the same direction, the magnetization dissipates slower, and to the value fitting the external field, not zero.
 

Suggested for: Magnet repulsive force -- how long does it last?

  • Last Post
Replies
7
Views
754
Replies
6
Views
328
Replies
35
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
315
  • Last Post
Replies
1
Views
129
Replies
4
Views
1K
Top