Magnetic Forces & Moving Wires: The Right Hand Rule

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction of magnetic fields and moving charges, particularly focusing on the implications of the right hand rule and the effects of moving wires on stationary charges. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of electromagnetic forces, reference frames, and the nature of electric and magnetic fields in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a stationary charge cannot experience a magnetic force because its velocity is zero, referencing the equation for magnetic force, ##q(\mathbf v \times \mathbf B)##.
  • Others propose that even though a stationary charge does not feel a magnetic force, it must experience some force due to symmetry, which they argue would be an electric force in a different reference frame.
  • A participant questions whether moving a wire with AC current would result in the wire emitting an electric field, to which others affirm this possibility under various conditions.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of reference frames, suggesting that the electromagnetic field is frame-dependent and that the wire may be neutral in one frame while charged in another.
  • There is mention of a paper by P. C. Peters that addresses the neutrality of current-carrying wires, with participants expressing interest in the assumptions made in the paper regarding grounding.
  • One participant describes a scenario involving a stationary proton and a slowly moving neutron, questioning the existence of the magnetic field from the neutron's perspective and whether it would observe a force on the proton.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about how electrons can appear to move in one frame but not in another, raising questions about symmetry and electric forces.
  • Participants clarify that in the stationary state, there is no net force acting on the electrons, as the forces are balanced by the electric field and friction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of forces experienced by stationary charges in different reference frames, and multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of moving wires and the transformation of electric and magnetic fields.

Contextual Notes

Discussions include references to specific physical scenarios and theoretical frameworks, highlighting the complexity of electromagnetic interactions and the importance of reference frames in understanding these phenomena. Some assumptions regarding grounding and charge neutrality in wires are noted but remain unresolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electromagnetism, particularly in the context of reference frames, electromagnetic fields, and the behavior of charges in varying conditions.

  • #31
PhDnotForMe said:
Can you give me an example of a case where J is not related to v?
Any case where ##\rho## is not at rest in either frame.

I am going to make a guess as to what is happening here. You are looking at two pages, the “Classical Electromagnetism and Special Relativity” page and the “Current Density” page. Both pages use the symbol ##v##, so you are trying to put the equations together. The problem is that the ##v## on each page has a different meaning. On the first page it says “The primed frame is moving relative to the unprimed frame at velocity ##v##”. On the second page it says that ##v## is “the velocity of the charges”. Those two quantities are different in general.

You cannot go simply looking at symbols and mixing equations together. You need to understand what the symbol means in each context. The text and figures around the symbol usually explain, but from some of your questions it seems that you are either not reading or not paying attention to that important information.
 
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  • #32
Dale said:
Any case where ##\rho## is not at rest in either frame.

I am going to make a guess as to what is happening here. You are looking at two pages, the “Classical Electromagnetism and Special Relativity” page and the “Current Density” page. Both pages use the symbol ##v##, so you are trying to put the equations together. The problem is that the ##v## on each page has a different meaning. On the first page it says “The primed frame is moving relative to the unprimed frame at velocity ##v##”. On the second page it says that ##v## is “the velocity of the charges”. Those two quantities are different in general.

You cannot go simply looking at symbols and mixing equations together. You need to understand what the symbol means in each context. The text and figures around the symbol usually explain, but from some of your questions it seems that you are either not reading or not paying attention to that important information.
Okay. So if I see a stationary proton and that proton begins to accelerate faster and faster in some direction, the B-field created will increase as it moves faster. Because the B-field changes, the E-field must change too. Will the transverse E-field of the proton increase or decrease?
 
  • #33
PhDnotForMe said:
Okay. So if I see a stationary proton and that proton begins to accelerate faster and faster in some direction, the B-field created will increase as it moves faster. Because the B-field changes, the E-field must change too. Will the transverse E-field of the proton increase or decrease?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liénard–Wiechert_potential in the section "Corresponding values of electric and magnetic fields". I don't know the answer to your question but that formula is how to calculate it.
 
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