Male-Female Strength/Wrestling Question

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The discussion centers on the comparative strength of men and women, with participants sharing personal experiences and observations. Many contributors note that while men generally have greater strength due to biological factors, women can surprise men with their strength, especially when they are fit and trained. Instances of women outperforming men in friendly competitions like arm wrestling and wrestling matches are highlighted, emphasizing that skill and technique can often outweigh raw strength. The conversation also touches on the impact of puberty on strength development, noting that boys typically gain significant muscle mass during this period, which can shift strength dynamics. Overall, while biological differences exist, individual fitness levels, training, and technique play crucial roles in strength comparisons between genders.
  • #121
FizixFreak said:
Good point! i think bone structure of an athlete also plays an important role here and so does the genetics if you look at gsp he does not have a very thick chest or jacked up shoulders its just that his body frame has a bigger surface area his bones are wider and since strength is not only a function of muscle mass but also depends of the amount of leverage you can generate with your limbs,so a guy with a bigger frame can easily hold on to his opponent in the guard and beat him down like gsp normally does can't wait to see him fight Jake shields
(By the way isn't surprising that this thread has not attracted that many females)


Of course genetics play a big role in sports, but recall that the best genetics in the world won't help you if you don't train correctly, if you are not persistent and consistent in training. You can be gifted like a god, and still end as a middle shape guy if you don't maintain your gifts.
GSPs genetics surely help him, but no genetic gift in this world is a supplement for hard training and determination. Genetics may make the journey easier, but they aint a guarantee for anything.
 
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  • #122
FizixFreak said:
nismaratwork said:
What the <snip> Really or are you just kidding? i mean that not only surprised me but i laughed like a horse on this

It's funny, AND it's true; she's the first to appreciate the humor in all of it. She's the prototypical "sporty" lesbian (her quote); softball, amateur body-building, fitness, martial arts. Still tiny and adorable!


FizixFreak said:
Nice i think i can make her straight(is that the right word) i am a very handsome man or at least that is what my mother keeps telling me.


That would be a PERFECT line to use if you want to engage in genuine combat with her. :wink:


FizixFreak said:
hmmmmmm... now i am even more interested:-p


That is true in a lot of cases but if you have seen andrei arlovski or brock lesner fight in the UFC you will think otherwise these guys are amazing.
And one more thing can testicles be dislocated?


They are, but if you weren't restrained by rules, they have very similar weak points: eyes, throat, axillary nodes, groin... oh, and LOTS of kicking in the head when down... gouging, and illegal knife-hands... you'd stand a better chance. Still, they are rather unique specimens among men, but GSP or Arlovski?... GSP. Even between men, pound for pound Lesner is nothing compared to the more skilled and athletic fighters, IMO... Arlovski is genuinely impressive.
 
  • #123
DanP said:
Of course genetics play a big role in sports, but recall that the best genetics in the world won't help you if you don't train correctly, if you are not persistent and consistent in training. You can be gifted like a god, and still end as a middle shape guy if you don't maintain your gifts.
GSPs genetics surely help him, but no genetic gift in this world is a supplement for hard training and determination. Genetics may make the journey easier, but they aint a guarantee for anything.

It seems that his life = fighting and training right now... you rarely see that level of dedication AND success. Manny Pacquiao would be another example, especially early in his career. Muhammed Ali was both, but when one leg of that training/body/genetics fell down, he started to get hit a LOT.

Nothing is a substitute for training, and cardio is god.
 
  • #124
nismaratwork said:
FizixFreak said:
That would be a PERFECT line to use if you want to engage in genuine combat with her. :wink:

well that ends a possible relationship thanks for nothing bro
 
  • #125
FizixFreak said:
nismaratwork said:
FizixFreak said:
well that ends a possible relationship thanks for nothing bro


Well, in a moment of sheer candor, I thought the same thing years ago, but I'll say this: she's a fantastic friend.
 
  • #126
nismaratwork said:
It seems that his life = fighting and training right now... you rarely see that level of dedication AND success. Manny Pacquiao would be another example, especially early in his career. Muhammed Ali was both, but when one leg of that training/body/genetics fell down, he started to get hit a LOT.

Nothing is a substitute for training, and cardio is god.

Training and hard work can help human come over disadvantages of genetics and any type of adversity i believe humans are the most superior beings because they learn and adapt things through hard work better then any other species we are not superior due to apposable thumbs or our ability to walk upright so yeah hard work is the key in any walk of life(now if i could just come over my laziness and get of from the couch and go to pee)
 
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  • #127
nismaratwork said:
Anderson Silva's front-kick would be another great example... sure we all know how to do it, but in a FIGHT?! Wow.

Silva's front kick was fast and very accurate, but the KO was not the result of superior physical preparedness IMO. I've got the impression Belfort totally missed where the kick was heading for, it looked like he expected it to come to the body. But in fact, have no freaking idea what Belfort was doing, he basically did nothing to counter that, he appeared to just stay there and watch how it comes with serenity, in quiet contemplation.

Ppl rave about this front kick because they see them extremely rarely in MMA which is very watched now, and they think it was unique and awesome, but it's more used in Muay Thai game and if anyone would want to see it used near perfection, they should look at Ramon Dekkers's fights.
 
  • #128
DanP said:
Silva's front kick was fast and very accurate, but the KO was not the result of superior physical preparedness IMO. I've got the impression Belfort totally missed where the kick was heading for, it looked like he expected it to come to the body. But in fact, have no freaking idea what Belfort was doing, he basically did nothing to counter that, he appeared to just stay there and watch how it comes with serenity, in quiet contemplation.

I think you're right, but it's SO rare in this context that I suspect he was taken unawares. I'm guessing that's a trick that works once, now that...

DanP said:
Ppl rave about this front kick because they see them extremely rarely in MMA which is very watched now, and they think it was unique and awesome, but it's more used in Muay Thai game and if anyone would want to see it used near perfection, they should look at Ramon Dekkers's fights.

...people are going to take a page from Muay Thai defense when fighting against a known kicker. I agree, and while you could NOT pay to me to fight in that ring, it's a true contest. Of course, that probably explains the pain, injuries, and occasional deaths...

Anyway, I have to say that Belfort's reaction was extremely poor, but if Silva had been anything less than powerful and PERFECTLY accurate, it would have just hurt. He NAILED him, and you could see that Belfort wasn't out, but the old synapses just weren't back up to speed.

I would say this: in Muay Thai you don't have to worry about the ground game, only the standing clinch. Ok, "only" is kind for grabbing someone in a virtual full nelson and kneeing them into pulp, but when a takedown -> submission or beating is there, throwing that becomes very unwise. I guess... unless you're Anderson Silva...

I know that for me, I'd never use a kick like that, even sparring... it's all or nothing unless you're an athletic god (Silva).
 
  • #129
nismaratwork said:
I would say this: in Muay Thai you don't have to worry about the ground game, only the standing clinch.

Actually, Muay Thai rules allow for some throws (some are banned, and some are outright hard to pull off because of the gloves) form clinch and allow for sweeps when you catch the leg. So you can bite the ground many times in a game under Muay Thai rules. Although is not allowed to engage the fallen adversary, throwing someone from clinch is sometimes painful and it is pretty demoralizing. So it;s not a walk in the park either. Throw a sub-par kick, and you will bite the ground in MT as well, should the defender decide its in advantage.

nismaratwork said:
Ok, "only" is kind for grabbing someone in a virtual full nelson and kneeing them into pulp, but when a takedown -> submission or beating is there, throwing that becomes very unwise. I guess...
.

It depends. True, usually ppl prefer higher percentage kicks, aiming low or mid. But it;s not unheard of high kicks in MMA. Anderson Silva uses them. Cro-Cop was famous for his high kicks. Gonzaga KOed Crop Cop with a high roundhouse kick. GSP took Matt Hughes down with a high kick. Chuck Liddell did the same but I can't recall who the hell was he fighting. Its not really unwise. It's a lower percentage attack, but rear high kicks have knockout power, and they are usually only used by ppl who had trained intensively primarily in striking.

nismaratwork said:
unless you're Anderson Silva...
.

Well, he gambled and he won. But just before his KO he sent a lead roundhouse high kick at Belfort, which was blocked perfectly and Belfort used the opportunity to take Silva down.
He managed to get back up on his feet, but Belfort;s reaction was awesome to that kick.
 
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  • #130
DanP said:
Actually, Muay Thai rules allow for some throws (some are banned, and some are outright hard to pull off because of the gloves) form clinch and allow for sweeps when you catch the leg. So you can bite the ground many times in a game under Muay Thai rules. Although is not allowed to engage the fallen adversary, throwing someone from clinch is sometimes painful and it is pretty demoralizing. So it;s not a walk in the park either. Throw a sub-par kick, and you will bite the ground in MT as well, should the defender decide its in advantage.

I flat-out didn't know that. Cool!



DanP said:
It depends. True, usually ppl prefer higher percentage kicks, aiming low or mid. But it;s not unheard of high kicks in MMA. Anderson Silva uses them. Cro-Cop was famous for his high kicks. Gonzaga KOed Crop Cop with a high roundhouse kick.

I saw that live... and I have to say it HURT to watch. The way his leg folded under him, that was a serious blow. It's still, IMO, a huge risk when facing that class of opponant... the legs are perfect targets, and the liver, and you can reduce risk. Just my view though.

DanP said:
GSP took Matt Hughes down with a high kick. Chuck Liddell did the same but I can't recall who the hell was he fighting. Its not really unwise. It's a lower percentage attack, but rear high kicks have knockout power, and they are usually only used by ppl who had trained intensively primarily in striking.

Note that of the UFC stable, the most (in my view) genetically gifted are: Matt Hughes, and GSP. I think in practice it takes immense training to be able to plan that kind of devestating and committed strike. I think it also takes serious reactions that you can train, but there has to be a natural gift too. Look at Hughes... he can strike, and lift a buffallo while singing. (maybe an exaggeration). I am quoting the "venerable" Joe Rogan, "He has retard strength"... insulting, but it's telling as well. These are also, including Liddel, are proven fighters with a jaw. In the history of UFC, it's probably one of the least common effective strikes, if not the least common. It's also fairly unique in that outside of a sport, it's a fairly mad thing to do. If you can afford to kick someone on the button, you could be doing the same to their genitals or right flank.



DanP said:
Well, he gambled and he won. But just before his KO he sent a lead roundhouse high kick at Belfort, which was blocked perfectly and Belfort used the opportunity to take Silva down. He managed to get back up on his feet, but Belfort;s reaction was awesome to that kick.

True, very true, and I think that's where Silva as a (good) freak of nature and training rears its beautiful head. If you're down under Belfort, it's not going to be an easy thing to get up. Silva is like some kind of mutant anaconda wearing a "person-suit". :wink:
 
  • #131
nismaratwork said:
I flat-out didn't know that. Cool!

For example:




That's MT. K1 rules are different. :devil:
 
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  • #132
DanP said:
For example:




That's MT. K1 rules are different. :devil:


Yeah, I admit I watch all of it. Boxing is just so generally corrupt and unimpressive>

That's one helll of a clip too, thanks. :biggrin:

Oh, have you seen Caol Uno perform his flying scissor takedown?... That guy is impressive as hell within K1/Shooto.
 
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  • #133
nismaratwork said:
Oh, have you seen Caol Uno perform his flying scissor takedown?... That guy is impressive as hell within K1/Shooto.

That's a Judo sacrifice throw called Hasami gaeshi (Kani bassami in Kodokan classification). It's very effective and prohibited in IJF Judo competition ( since 1980 I think, after Sumio Endo broke Yasuhiro Yamagarbagea's leg with it ) since it can cause serious injuries.

Some variations are pretty flashy (ok, she did it with uke's cooperation :P )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERzm2t_VrIc&f

Some variations of it are also effective for street fights (this particular version prevent you from having one leg trapped under opponent) if you decide to go down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=uk&v=xUI6KxOHIYM
 
  • #134
DanP said:
That's a Judo sacrifice throw called Hasami gaeshi (Kani bassami in Kodokan classification). It's very effective and prohibited in IJF Judo competition ( since 1980 I think, after Sumio Endo broke Yasuhiro Yamagarbagea's leg with it ) since it can cause serious injuries.

Some variations are pretty flashy (ok, she did it with uke's cooperation :P )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERzm2t_VrIc&f

Some variations of it are also effective for street fights (this particular version prevent you from having one leg trapped under opponent) if you decide to go down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=uk&v=xUI6KxOHIYM

Ahhh Judo... such a rich and violent history, and now so diluted. I admit, the only Judo I know was in the context of Krav Maga, and the names weren't in it. Those are some excellent videos, and it seems like a fine way to roll into a truly devestating postion like a figure-4 leg lock, or any number of dislocations and hyperextensions.

Good clean fun. :wink:
 
  • #135
  • #136
lisab said:
:!) What a beautiful takedown!

Throws and takedowns... that's what Judo, do. :-p

(note, I realize there is more to Judo)
 
  • #137
nismaratwork said:
Ahhh Judo... such a rich and violent history, and now so diluted. I admit, the only Judo I know was in the context of Krav Maga, and the names weren't in it. Those are some excellent videos, and it seems like a fine way to roll into a truly devestating postion like a figure-4 leg lock, or any number of dislocations and hyperextensions.

Good clean fun. :wink:

I am not saying that judo is ineffective but these particular techniques are impractical on the streets i mean they look flashy and impressive but in a real street fight using these techniques would not be good idea for a street fight you need to learn techniques which are simple and easy to master like the ones used by to police and the army but none the less judo can overall be used as an effective fighting style.

If we are talking about combat sport i think i must post this fight this is some crazy stuff this fight really shows the difference between k1 and mma striking.
 
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  • #138
FizixFreak said:
I am not saying that judo is ineffective but these particular techniques are impractical on the streets i mean they look flashy and impressive but in a real street fight using these techniques would not be good idea for a street fight you need to learn techniques which are simple and easy to master like the ones used by to police and the army but none the less judo can overall be used as an effective fighting style.



Kani Basami is effective in street fights. It may not appear so to an untrained eye, but it is.
 
  • #139
DanP said:
Kani Basami is effective in street fights. It may not appear so to an untrained eye, but it is.

Well i have never trained my eyes(:biggrin: get it?) but i do have some experience in combat sports and it takes time to learn these techniques and to use it on streets where things get pretty rough some times you need to master it completely and a thug on the street is never going to wait for the day you master the technique and then attack you.

Another thing i notice that when practicing these techniques in the dojo or a club your sparring partner will not show much resistance but on the street things will be different.
 
  • #140
FizixFreak said:
Well i have never trained my eyes

You should :P

FizixFreak said:
thug on the street is never going to wait for the day you master the technique and then attack you.

Nobody will wait for you to learn to master any technique. Humans believe in silver bullets, but they don't exist. The most "basic" of striking techniques, like a jab or a cross take many months to be developed to any meaningful extent. You'll probably learn to throw a lead hook efficiently after about ten thousand repetitions. And then you will still improve your motor control for many many years to come.

And that's the development of basic technique only. Countering attacks, the ability to change your striking combination on the fly depending the reaction of your opponent to the first punch in the series is a skill which won't come easy at all, and it requires countless hours of sparring .

In fact, you will see that it's easier for a person to learn ground techniques and become proficient in them than stand-up (and that include both strikes and throws).

One of the problems with many self-defense training places is that they teach many great techniques, which suposedly work well with little to no training, but then the wake up call
comes. Nothing really falls into place without countless hours of training, sparring, and physical preparation. Lacking those, all you managed to do is to lure practitioners into a false sense of security.

The effectiveness of any technical movement in sports or in combat is determined by the practitioners effectiveness, not by the technique itself. The jab might be the most important and the most simple and basic punch in every fighting system, but if you are not able to use it correctly, you still amount for nothing. And ironically, throwing a good jab takes skill :P

FizixFreak said:
Another thing i notice that when practicing these techniques in the dojo or a club your sparring partner will not show much resistance but on the street things will be different.

Really ? Smart of you to notice that street fights involve resistance. Resisting a kami basami is one the worst idea you can have. You should not give an opportunity to have it applied. This particular throw has the potential to do most of it's damage when it is resisted. So if you got exposed to it, pray to god that you manage to see it coming, and you do not resist it.

Also, sparring means different things to different ppl. My city is a competitive Judo center, one of the best in the country. Around here sparring means business. While ppl don't go all out on each other all the time, and they are very useful in training to each other, and try to improve their team members which do not have a great game yet, they fight, they don't play. You don't raise to a competitive standard without taking your sparring **very seriously**. Around here even teenage girls will show a lot of resistance in sparring.
 
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  • #141
FizixFreak said:
I am not saying that judo is ineffective but these particular techniques are impractical on the streets i mean they look flashy and impressive but in a real street fight using these techniques would not be good idea for a street fight you need to learn techniques which are simple and easy to master like the ones used by to police and the army but none the less judo can overall be used as an effective fighting style.

If we are talking about combat sport i think i must post this fight this is some crazy stuff this fight really shows the difference between k1 and mma striking.


The people I most fear in a street fight, unarmed, are people who really know a lot of Judo, and people with exceptional BJJ. I'm a big guy, and Judo RAPIDLY levels that playing field without a lot of work on my part. If you're in a combat sport, the difference is that you intentinally dislocate and break what you can.

Is it the first thing you should do?... probably not, but if it's in your bag of tricks it's going to take almost ANYONE by surprise. Once on the ground, disoriented, and in a disadvantageous position (possibly with broken limbs)... it's over.
 
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  • #142
DanP said:
You should :P



Nobody will wait for you to learn to master any technique. Humans believe in silver bullets, but they don't exist. The most "basic" of striking techniques, like a jab or a cross take many months to be developed to any meaningful extent. You'll probably learn to throw a lead hook efficiently after about ten thousand repetitions. And then you will still improve your motor control for many many years to come.

And that's the development of basic technique only. Countering attacks, the ability to change your striking combination on the fly depending the reaction of your opponent to the first punch in the series is a skill which won't come easy at all, and it requires countless hours of sparring .

In fact, you will see that it's easier for a person to learn ground techniques and become proficient in them than stand-up (and that include both strikes and throws).

One of the problems with many self-defense training places is that they teach many great techniques, which suposedly work well with little to no training, but then the wake up call
comes. Nothing really falls into place without countless hours of training, sparring, and physical preparation. Lacking those, all you managed to do is to lure practitioners into a false sense of security.

The effectiveness of any technical movement in sports or in combat is determined by the practitioners effectiveness, not by the technique itself. The jab might be the most important and the most simple and basic punch in every fighting system, but if you are not able to use it correctly, you still amount for nothing. And ironically, throwing a good jab takes skill :P



Really ? Smart of you to notice that street fights involve resistance. Resisting a kami basami is one the worst idea you can have. This particular throw has the potential to do most of it's damage when it is resisted. So if you got exposed to it, pray to god that you manage to see it coming, and you do not resist it.

Also, sparring means different things to different ppl. My city is a competitive Judo center, one of the best in the country. Around here sparring means business. While ppl don't go all out on each other all the time, and they are very useful in training to each other, and try to improve their team members which do not have a great game yet, they fight, they don't play. You don't raise to a competitive standard without taking your sparring **very seriously**. Around here even teenage girls will show a lot of resistance in sparring.

Just to add... in my experience sparring can mean:

"Warring kata"... aka 'wushu show gymnastic'... pretty meaningless on its own.
Practice sparring with limited strikes (meant to practice a technique, not a fight)
Sparring (try not to break anything)
Training (break it if you can...)

They're all useful at different points, with the latter only being necessary if you focus on training reactions. I know that I've never had a hyperextended knee and thougth, "gee, s/he's really not maximizing that extension...". I'm thinking, "AARRRGGGGHHH! taptaptaptap." In a fight, that would just be dislocated, and how sloppy that technique was would be... quite irrelevant.
 
  • #143
nismaratwork said:
Just to add... in my experience sparring can mean:

"Warring kata"... aka 'wushu show gymnastic'... pretty meaningless on its own.
Practice sparring with limited strikes (meant to practice a technique, not a fight)
Sparring (try not to break anything)
Training (break it if you can...)

They're all useful at different points, with the latter only being necessary if you focus on training reactions. I know that I've never had a hyperextended knee and thougth, "gee, s/he's really not maximizing that extension...". I'm thinking, "AARRRGGGGHHH! taptaptaptap." In a fight, that would just be dislocated, and how sloppy that technique was would be... quite irrelevant.

For me sparring only means one thing, free sparring practice. Kata is kata, and just about no one bothers with it, and learning a technique with a compliant opponent is technical training. Compliance and lack of resistance form an opponent is useful while learning the basics of a technique. In sparring, ppl are instructed to always show resistance, and never comply. You can't learn fighting by sparing with compliant opponents.

Compliance in sparring may be very well what you see in your average gyms out there, but you will **not** see it in a place where ppl train to be competitively successful (with the exceptions I enumerated in some above posts, like helping someone less advanced to gain).

If someone goes to such a place where opponents are compliant in sparing, my advice is to find another place. You are conned of your money. You will not learn to fight.
 
  • #144
DanP said:
For me sparring only means one thing, free sparring practice. Kata is kata, and just about no one bothers with it, and learning a technique with a compliant opponent is technical training. Compliance and lack of resistance form an opponent is useful while learning the basics of a technique. In sparring, ppl are instructed to always show resistance, and never comply. You can't learn fighting by sparing with compliant opponents.

Compliance in sparring may be very well what you see in your average gyms out there, but you will **not** see it in a place where ppl train to be competitively successful (with the exceptions I enumerated in some above posts, like helping someone less advanced to gain).

If someone goes to such a place where opponents are compliant in sparing, my advice is to find another place. You are conned of your money. You will not learn to fight.

I agree, but my experiences have not all been positive, as you might imagine. I began all of this with what I will kindly call, "Kenpo no Suburbia", so I'm describing the good bad and ugly. I agree that training for competition seems to lead to more gymnastics than meaningful skills, but maybe that's what they want?
 
  • #145
nismaratwork said:
I agree that training for competition seems to lead to more gymnastics than meaningful skills, but maybe that's what they want?

It doesn't leads to gymnastics, it usually leads to extremely efficient skills in a isolated area. And it happens in all sports I know. Boxers are the best punchers in this world, no other practitioners, beeit MMA , MT, whatever, comes close to the power and accuracy of a boxer's punch. All they do after all is punch. Sport judo players become godlike in tachi-waza while retaining ne-waza skills, and BJJ are gods in ne-waza while retaining some skills in tachi-waza.

Why this happens is easy to see, it's the rules of the sport and the scoring system which affects what techniques you emphasize in you training. After all, winning is all in sports, if you plan to make a life from it, earn money from it and from commercials, open a gym of your own to train a team. And to make money from a sport, you have to make it grow, and it has to be spectacular to draw viewers.

Take Judo for example. Kano created Judo from Jiu-Jitsu as a form of complete physical and psychical development for a human being. In 1882 he formed the Kodokan institute, the governing body of Judo. They created rule sets for sport encounters.

At the beginning of 20th icentury n Japan, there where schools which introduced kids to Judo in schools through ne-waza and not through tachi-waza to prevent injury. The focus in the first years of development was newaza, and tachi-waza was gradually introduced later in training. This lead to a generation of fighters which where extremely proficient in ne-waza. They hold matches under a subset of Kodokan rules which went to be known as Kosen Judo. It was practiced in kosen schools (5 years colleges).

This led to an interesting phenomenon. A skilled ne-waza practitioner would win a fight under those rules even if the was gracefully thrown, or if they would simply pull guard with no attempt to throw their adversary, and since they had excellent mat skills, and they would not have any desire to engage again in tachi-waza once they where on the mat. Furthermore a draw in Judo is easier to obtain in ne-waza then in tachi-waza, and this led to less skilled practitioners automatically pulling guard or entering mat techniques in the hope that they would secure a draw in the game against a more skilled opponent.

This changed in 1925. Kodokan revised the competition rules, and they limited the time you could spend in ne-waza. They would simply stand you up. This was effective in cutting off the trend of less skilled players to just pull guard.

Those rules continue to be modified even today. The IJF's trend is to make harder and harder to spend time on ground, there are very specific conditions which must be in place, apparent progress towards a technique must be done very fast, or else the referee will just call matte and stand the players up. Today, IJF referees will call matte unbelievably easy. You will be cut short very fast when you try to play your ne-waza. This makes emphasis on tachi-waza in Sport Judo so important today. And it also make sport judo more spectacular then other grappling sports, a Judo throw is beautiful to behold, while keeping someone 10 minutes between your legs is mighty boring for the casual viewers. The popularity for viewers means more money for the sport.So after the Kodokan changed rules, some of the Kosen schools decided to continue to train the same way, giving emphasis to ne-waza. They raised ne-waza to rang of art, and if you ever have the posibillty to watch those techniques you will realize that long before BJJ existed , ne-waza was already an art.

Some Judoka's where extremely well rounded, like the legendary Masahiko Kimura , others favored Newaza, others tachi-waza.

Now enter the Gracie family. In 1917 a Kodokan judoka Mitsuyo Maeda was in Brazil , popularizing Kano';s judo through the world. Carlos Gracie see a demonstration of his, and asked to be accepted as a student. Maeda accepted him and thought him Judo. Later Helio Gracie learned from brother. He was a smaller size men which did not posses outstanding physical strength, so he focused , like so many Kosen Players on ne-waza. This in effect resulted in the birth of the art known today as BJJ.

BJJ continued to evolve on it;s own line through the years. It became popular as the Gracies defeated opponent after opponent with their ne-waza. Changes occurred here as well. Sport BJJ became more popular, and rules of BJJ sport competition took their toll on the system. Fancy techniques, very efficient in the sport under it's rules were now widely used, even if they would not amount much in vale tudo. BJJ , like Judo, felt the wrath of competition rules :P

As for me, I love Judo. Judo is beautiful. It tells things to me.
 
  • #146
DanP said:
It doesn't leads to gymnastics, it usually leads to extremely efficient skills in a isolated area. And it happens in all sports I know. Boxers are the best punchers in this world, no other practitioners, beeit MMA , MT, whatever, comes close to the power and accuracy of a boxer's punch. All they do after all is punch. Sport judo players become godlike in tachi-waza while retaining ne-waza skills, and BJJ are gods in ne-waza while retaining some skills in tachi-waza.

Why this happens is easy to see, it's the rules of the sport and the scoring system which affects what techniques you emphasize in you training. After all, winning is all in sports, if you plan to make a life from it, earn money from it and from commercials, open a gym of your own to train a team. And to make money from a sport, you have to make it grow, and it has to be spectacular to draw viewers.

I appreciate all of that, but not the "schools" which purport to teach self defense when it is in fact, a sport. SD is more of a state of mind and reaction set, than it is perfected technique (not that the latter hurts). In the context of a sport, I agree with your points.

DanP said:
Take Judo for example. Kano created Judo from Jiu-Jitsu as a form of complete physical and psychical development for a human being. In 1882 he formed the Kodokan institute, the governing body of Judo. They created rule sets for sport encounters.

At the beginning of 20th icentury n Japan, there where schools which introduced kids to Judo in schools through ne-waza and not through tachi-waza to prevent injury. The focus in the first years of development was newaza, and tachi-waza was gradually introduced later in training. This lead to a generation of fighters which where extremely proficient in ne-waza. They hold matches under a subset of Kodokan rules which went to be known as Kosen Judo. It was practiced in kosen schools (5 years colleges).

This led to an interesting phenomenon. A skilled ne-waza practitioner would win a fight under those rules even if the was gracefully thrown, or if they would simply pull guard with no attempt to throw their adversary, and since they had excellent mat skills, and they would not have any desire to engage again in tachi-waza once they where on the mat. Furthermore a draw in Judo is easier to obtain in ne-waza then in tachi-waza, and this led to less skilled practitioners automatically pulling guard or entering mat techniques in the hope that they would secure a draw in the game against a more skilled opponent.

I'm familiar with this, although not in Judo. I sounds very much like "Zan-shin" as an element of Kendo; like fencing, a great sport, but not a pretense to martial skills. AFAIK, Judo of the neck-breaking variety is largely avoided under sport rules, for obvious reasons. Unfortunatley people in much of the world are exposed to the sport/way of life only. I'm looking at Aikido right now...

DanP said:
This changed in 1925. Kodokan revised the competition rules, and they limited the time you could spend in ne-waza. They would simply stand you up. This was effective in cutting off the trend of less skilled players to just pull guard.

So we have him to thank for this! You have a truly amazing knoweledge of Judo, Dan wa Nihon-jin desu ka? ("Are you Japanese"... forum rules)

DanP said:
Those rules continue to be modified even today. The IJF's trend is to make harder and harder to spend time on ground, there are very specific conditions which must be in place, apparent progress towards a technique must be done very fast, or else the referee will just call matte and stand the players up. Today, IJF referees will call matte unbelievably easy. You will be cut short very fast when you try to play your ne-waza. This makes emphasis on tachi-waza in Sport Judo so important today. And it also make sport judo more spectacular then other grappling sports, a Judo throw is beautiful to behold, while keeping someone 10 minutes between your legs is mighty boring for the casual viewers. The popularity for viewers means more money for the sport.

I'm just listening and learning at this point, but I feel the need to aknowledge that yes, I'm listening.


DanP said:
So after the Kodokan changed rules, some of the Kosen schools decided to continue to train the same way, giving emphasis to ne-waza. They raised ne-waza to rang of art, and if you ever have the posibillty to watch those techniques you will realize that long before BJJ existed , ne-waza was already an art.

This I did know... after all, it's the amazing number of Japanese people who came to Brazil which began all of this. I enjoy the contrast between (ne-waza) the active game on the back, and GRW's emphasis on "ANYTHING BUT THE BACK". When you resolve the two, it can lead to immense stabilty, and controlling falls to your advantage. Then again, you doubtless know that already!

DanP said:
Some Judoka's where extremely well rounded, like the legendary Masahiko Kimura , others favored Newaza, others tachi-waza.

This is where pure Judo lost me; given that I'm not trying to compete, I'm more interested in the mechanics of a rare fight, and the mentality of avoiding them at all costs. I can see based on your description how Judo has evolved as a sport, but as a martial art it seems to have lost something unless you're well connected to a VERY hard Judoka.

DanP said:
Now enter the Gracie family. In 1917 a Kodokan judoka Mitsuyo Maeda was in Brazil , popularizing Kano';s judo through the world. Carlos Gracie see a demonstration of his, and asked to be accepted as a student. Maeda accepted him and thought him Judo. Later Helio Gracie learned from brother. He was a smaller size men which did not posses outstanding physical strength, so he focused , like so many Kosen Players on ne-waza. This in effect resulted in the birth of the art known today as BJJ.

BJJ continued to evolve on it;s own line through the years. It became popular as the Gracies defeated opponent after opponent with their ne-waza. Changes occurred here as well. Sport BJJ became more popular, and rules of BJJ sport competition took their toll on the system. Fancy techniques, very efficient in the sport under it's rules were now widely used, even if they would not amount much in vale tudo. BJJ , like Judo, felt the wrath of competition rules :P

Now this I knew, but only because of my interest in the Gracies. I didn't know this degree of detail, and it's a painful thing that BJJ has become the next "sport". Forunately its origin in Brazil, like the Phillipino martial arts (Oh I do so love Escrima, I own foam, rattan, and HARDwood rattan) means that you can still learn it how you want to... sport or martial.

DanP said:
As for me, I love Judo. Judo is beautiful. It tells things to me.

That's what I get from fencing... it's the intense concentration of the mind and body, on tiny and large movements, and asessing the opponant. Kung-Fu and "Pushing Hands" have much the same effect I find, but like Judo can be adapted to combat with extensive practice and training. Needless to say, the fun would be gone if death were a stake, so I'm not pissing on contests in general, just ones posing as "no holds barred"... really?... then I have one for Lesner...

"I destroy your nuts,
You writhe a gnashing of teeth,
Then you crush my head."

:biggrin:
 
  • #147
nismaratwork said:
SD is more of a state of mind and reaction set, than it is perfected technique (not that the latter hurts). In the context of a sport, I agree with your points.

Yes, self defense requires a certain state of mind. The state of mind in which you carry.

If you look at FBI's aggravated assault statistics for 2009 in USA you learn that 26.9% where executed unarmed, 20.9% with firearms, 18.7% with edged weapons and 33.5% with other weapons. (ofc, those stats are different in other countries, but still the vast majority of aggravated assault is perpetrated with a weapon). Those stats exclude any other assaults as murder and forcible rape.

So basically in a situation which requires SD you have over 73% probability to face an armed assault. So while any SD course using hand to hand combat will help you a bit, the best possible defense is to carry and be trained in proper use of a firearm.

IMO this it's a inescapable conclusion. We have to be realistic about it, any hand to hand system out there should only be used as a last resort. Its good to be trained in hand to hand, but its also very good not to depend on it

Indiana Jones was right:P

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #148
DanP said:
You should :P
Nobody will wait for you to learn to master any technique. Humans believe in silver bullets, but they don't exist. The most "basic" of striking techniques, like a jab or a cross take many months to be developed to any meaningful extent. You'll probably learn to throw a lead hook efficiently after about ten thousand repetitions. And then you will still improve your motor control for many many years to come.

And that's the development of basic technique only. Countering attacks, the ability to change your striking combination on the fly depending the reaction of your opponent to the first punch in the series is a skill which won't come easy at all, and it requires countless hours of sparring .

In fact, you will see that it's easier for a person to learn ground techniques and become proficient in them than stand-up (and that include both strikes and throws).

One of the problems with many self-defense training places is that they teach many great techniques, which suposedly work well with little to no training, but then the wake up call
comes. Nothing really falls into place without countless hours of training, sparring, and physical preparation. Lacking those, all you managed to do is to lure practitioners into a false sense of security.

The effectiveness of any technical movement in sports or in combat is determined by the practitioners effectiveness, not by the technique itself. The jab might be the most important and the most simple and basic punch in every fighting system, but if you are not able to use it correctly, you still amount for nothing. And ironically, throwing a good jab takes skill :P
Really ? Smart of you to notice that street fights involve resistance. Resisting a kami basami is one the worst idea you can have. You should not give an opportunity to have it applied. This particular throw has the potential to do most of it's damage when it is resisted. So if you got exposed to it, pray to god that you manage to see it coming, and you do not resist it.

Also, sparring means different things to different ppl. My city is a competitive Judo center, one of the best in the country. Around here sparring means business. While ppl don't go all out on each other all the time, and they are very useful in training to each other, and try to improve their team members which do not have a great game yet, they fight, they don't play. You don't raise to a competitive standard without taking your sparring **very seriously**. Around here even teenage girls will show a lot of resistance in sparring.

We can have a long debate on this but having some experience i think we both will agree that executing the technique in a dojo and doing the same on the street are two different things in the street fight a person might panic and that can mess up his technique so if you learn a specific throw or take down and start considering yourself toughest guy around sooner or later you will get your a** handed to you.

I think when it comes to pulling the trigger having an M-16 would not help if you don't have the balls or mental stability to overcome the odds in a real fight a combination of mental toughness and dedicated training is something you need the most blindly trusting on a specific move can get you in trouble.
 
  • #149
It's amazing how deep these internet conversations become

cant we all agree we're all smart and special
 
  • #150
elfboy said:
It's amazing how deep these internet conversations become

cant we all agree we're all smart and special

Why can't we all be smart and special, yet still want to have deep conversations?
 

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