Mass-spring-damper problem for kayaking waterfalls

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of installing shock absorbers in a kayak seat to mitigate back injuries when landing flat after descending waterfalls. Participants explore the dynamics of impact with water, the mechanics of springs and dampers, and the calculations needed to determine the effectiveness of such modifications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the assumption that a kayak sinks approximately 6 inches into aerated water upon landing, which is believed to reduce the G-forces experienced during impact.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the 6 inches figure and suggests that the kayak may initially sink further than the mass of water displaced, proposing that energy absorption by water is a factor to consider.
  • Concerns are raised about how the springs or shocks would interact with the water's dampening effect, with uncertainty about the overall rate of deceleration experienced by the upper body during impact.
  • A participant expresses a desire for a high spring rate to prevent compression under normal weight but allow for compression during high G landings.
  • Discussion includes the concept of "impulse" and its relation to impact forces, with a participant seeking clarification on how increasing the distance traveled during impact might affect the forces experienced.
  • Another participant mentions that studies indicate human bones can begin to break at forces around 12 KiloNewtons, suggesting that body position at impact can influence the outcome.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints regarding the mechanics of impact and the effectiveness of shock absorbers, with no consensus reached on the specific calculations or outcomes related to the proposed modifications.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the need for further research into the numbers and assumptions presented, particularly regarding the dynamics of water impact and the mechanical properties of springs and dampers.

  • #31
WW Kayaker said:
Sorry, for some reason my email stopped sending notifications of replies to this thread so I just now saw the most recent comments.
The PF email notification let's you know only when the first post appears after your last view of the thread. PF knows when you view PF, but not when you view the email.
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  • #32
WW Kayaker said:
However, I suspect the water doesn't act like a spring but more like a damper with uniform rate of dampening during the entire impact.
OK, let's model the water as a pure damper, that is ##F= -Cv## where ##C## is a damping coefficient.

We already know the initial velocity upon impact, i.e. ##v_0 = \sqrt{2gh}##. Knowing that ##v = \frac{dx}{dt}## and ##F = m\frac{dv}{dt}##, then:
$$F = mv\frac{dv}{dx}$$
$$-Cv = mv\frac{dv}{dx}$$
$$dx = -\frac{m}{C}dv$$
$$\int_0^d dx = -\frac{m}{C}\int_{v_0}^0 dv$$
$$d = \frac{m}{C}v_0$$
Thus we can estimate ##C## if we know the distance ##d## that the kayak sinks in:
$$C = \frac{mv_0}{d}$$
The maximum damping force will be at maximum velocity, which is at ##v_0##:
$$F_{d\ max} = C v_0 = \frac{m}{d}v_0^2 = \frac{2mgh}{d} = \frac{2Wh}{d}$$
For ##W= 175\ lb##, ##h = 20\ ft## and ##d= 6\ in##, then ##F_{d\ max} = 14\ 000\ lb##.

What difference will adding a spring in series do? Assuming the ideal case where the spring compresses completely before the kayak begins sinking:
$$v_0 = \sqrt{2gh - \frac{K_s}{m}x_s^2}$$
and
$$F_{s\ max}= K_s x_s$$
$$F_{d\ max} = \frac{m\sqrt{2gh}}{d}\sqrt{2gh - \frac{K_s}{m}x_s^2}$$
The spring constant necessary to achieve a compression of ##2"## without bottoming out is ##5930\ lb## which will give ##F_{s\ max} = F_{d\ max} = 11\ 860\ lb ##, same as with the 2 springs in series. With any other spring constant, either ##F_{s\ max}## or ##F_{d\ max}## will increase (up to ##14\ 000\ lb##).

I thought that was an interesting result. I guess it means that there is a maximum value for the energy that you can absorb with a spring under the seat, no matter how the energy will be dissipated afterward.
 
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