1. Not finding help here? Sign up for a free 30min tutor trial with Chegg Tutors
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Maxima and Minima, Rod Rotating on a Surface With Friction

  1. Dec 11, 2014 #1
    1. The problem statement, all variables and given/known data
    8efc7c03ab.239be88e55.BRkxLR.png

    A uniform rod of mass M and length L can rotate around point P which is at position x from one end of the rod as shown in the figure. The rod is gently placed on a rough horizontal surface that has a friction coefficient μ. and at t=0 starts rotating with angular velocity ω.

    The total time of rotation of the rod is T, which depends on x. Let the maximum and minimum time of rotation be T_M and T_m respectively. Find: [tex] \frac{T_m}{T_M}[/tex]


    3. The attempt at a solution

    We need to find the torque that the friction force exerts on the rod and from that find the angular deceleration of the rod. We need to consider the part of the rod that is above the point of rotation and the one below it. Let's take a small mass dm with length ds, we have (λ is the linear mass density of the rod) :

    [tex] dF_f = μgdm = μgλds[/tex]
    [tex] dτ= μgλsds[/tex]
    The total torque is the sum of the torques of the two parts:
    [tex] \int_{0}^{L-x} μgλs ds + \int_{0}^{-x} μgλs ds = \frac{1}{2}μgλx^2 + \frac{1}{2}μgλ(L-x)^2 = \frac{1}{2}μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx)) [/tex]
    Now:
    [tex] α=\frac{τ}{I}= \frac{\frac{1}{2}μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))}{\frac{1}{3}ML^2 +Mx^2}= \frac{μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))}{\frac{2}{3}ML^2 +2Mx^2} [/tex]
    [tex] T= \frac{ω}{α} = \frac{ω(\frac{2}{3}ML^2 +2Mx^2)}{μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))} [/tex]

    We take the derivative with respect to x and set it equal to 0:
    [tex] \frac{d}{dx} \frac{ω(\frac{2}{3}ML^2 +2Mx^2)}{μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))} = \frac{4LMω(L^2+Lx-3x^2)}{3gλμ(L^2-2Lx+2x^2)} = \frac{4L^2ω(L^2+Lx-3x^2)}{3gμ(L^2-2Lx+2x^2)} = 0[/tex]
    When we solve for x we get one negative root which isn't physical.
    [tex] x= \frac{-L+L\sqrt{13}}{-6} = \frac{L(1-\sqrt{13})}{6} [/tex]
    Can someone please tell me where's the mistake?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 11, 2014 #2

    haruspex

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    How do you get that expression for I?
     
  4. Dec 11, 2014 #3
    I used the parallel axis theorem. But I think I made a mistake, because the theorem applies to the moment of inertia around the center of mass so it should have been:
    [tex] I=\frac{1}{12}ML^2 +M(\frac{L}{2} -x)^2 [/tex]
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  5. Dec 11, 2014 #4

    haruspex

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    Yes. Does the answer look better now?
     
  6. Dec 11, 2014 #5
    We have:
    [tex] α=\frac{μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))}{\frac{1}{6}ML^2 +2M(\frac{L}{2} -x)^2} [/tex]
    [tex] T= \frac{ω}{α} = \frac{ω(\frac{1}{6}ML^2 +2M(\frac{L}{2} -x)^2)}{μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))} [/tex]
    When we take the derivative we get:
    [tex] \frac{d}{dx} \frac{ω(\frac{1}{6}ML^2 +2M(\frac{L}{2} -x)^2)}{μgλ(L^2 +2(x^2-Lx))} = -\frac{2L^2Mω(L-2x)}{3μgλ(L^2-2Lx+2x^2)^2} [/tex]
    Which only gives us one solution: [tex] x= \frac{L}{2} [/tex]
    We should have two solutions. So, there's still something wrong
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  7. Dec 11, 2014 #6

    haruspex

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    That's not what I get.
    It is possible there is only one local extremum. There is a physical constraint on the range of x.
     
  8. Dec 11, 2014 #7
    WolframAlpha link for derivative: http://goo.gl/M7Psfe

    I guess it could be possible that there's only one extremum but it would mean that we don't have both a maximum and minimum time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  9. Dec 12, 2014 #8

    haruspex

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    No, I wrote local extremum, but even that wasn't quite accurate. One end of the physical range for x may be an extremum by virtue of the fact that x cannot go any further along, but the gradient need not be zero. Indeed, the fact that there was only one d/dx = 0 point, and that the two ends of the physical range are equivalent, it follows that those end points must represent the other extreme value.
     
  10. Dec 12, 2014 #9
    I see what you mean now.

    If we substitute [itex] x= \frac{L}{2} [/itex] we get:

    [tex] T_m = \frac{Mω}{3gλμ} [/tex]

    Now, when we substitute [itex] x=0 [/itex] or [itex] x=L [/itex] we get:
    [tex] T_M = \frac{2Mω}{3gλμ} [/tex]

    So:
    [tex] \frac{T_m}{T_M} = \frac{1}{2} [/tex]

    Can this result be derived intuitively, without calculus?

    Anyway, thank you very much for you help.
     
  11. Dec 12, 2014 #10

    haruspex

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    Perhaps.
    A rod length L pivoted at one end will clearly take the same time to stop as two rods of length L, and therefore the same as a single rod length 2L pivoted about its centre.
    Doubling the length of the rod (for the same density) doubles the mass, multiplies the moment of inertia by 8, so multiplies the KE by 8. The frictional force doubles, so the rotational distance to stop quadruples. Under uniform acceleration, four time the distance means twice the time.
    Of course, I haven't shown these are the extreme times.
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?
Draft saved Draft deleted



Similar Discussions: Maxima and Minima, Rod Rotating on a Surface With Friction
  1. Maxima & Minima (Replies: 18)

Loading...