I Missing proof of the Shell theorem in General Relativity

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the validity of the shell theorem in the context of General Relativity (GR) and its relationship to the Schwarzschild solution. It is clarified that while the second part of the shell theorem holds in GR, the first part, which pertains to the gravitational effect of a point mass, is not meaningful within GR. The derivation of the Schwarzschild solution does not involve replacing a spherically symmetric object with a point mass, as this would lead to circular reasoning. Additionally, the Schwarzschild solution is valid outside an object only if its radius exceeds the Schwarzschild radius, and the singularity at the center is not a point mass but rather a spacelike singularity. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the distinction between Newtonian gravity and GR, particularly regarding the treatment of mass and spacetime geometry.
  • #31
PeroK said:
The Schwarzschild solution is valid outside an object, as long as the radius of the object is greater than its Schwarzschild radius.
Actually it has to be greater than 9/8 of the Schwarzschild radius, per Buchdahl's Theorem.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Bosko said:
Do you think that for ##r_1 < r_s## the mathematical model does not correctly represent physical reality?
That's not the issue. The issue is that you don't understand what physical reality the mathematical model represents for values of ##r## less than ##r_s##. For such values of ##r## the model represents the interior of a black hole. It does not represent the vacuum region outside an ordinary gravitating object with that radius.
 
  • #33
PeroK said:
For ##r < r_s##, the coordinate ##r## is timelike.
This is true for Schwarzschild coordinates, but there are other charts for which it is not true. You give a much better description of the actual problem (which can be stated in a form that's invariant, so it doesn't actually depend on your choice of coordinates) here:

PeroK said:
The region of spacetime represented by ##0 < r < r_1 < r_s## for any ##\phi, \theta## and fixed ##t## is not a spatial volume. It cannot be the volume of a massive object.
 
  • #34
Bosko said:
There is no parameter of a spherically symmetric object in the solution. For example, the radius .
The solution does not depend on the size of the object.
Let's find some detailed explanation of the formula and see when the radius of the object vanishes .

Is this from Wikipedia good for analysis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_of_the_Schwarzschild_solution

I'm looking for a detailed derivation available on the internet.

Can we agree that the solution does not depend on the radius of a spherically symmetric object?
I think that this is some form of the shell theorem.
You assume nothing but spherical symmetry, and vacuum outside some r. You assume nothing about inside r (except spherical symmetry throughout). You derive that the solution is unique up to one parameter - a mass parameter associated with everything inside r. Thus you have derived, not assumed, that nothing about the nature or size of what is inside r can matter. There is simply no place for it in the solution. The shell theorem in GR is thus derived, not assumed. It is also different from the Newtonian statement ( you can’t talk about a mass point). The GR statement is: if all vacuum outside of r, nothing about the inside matters except one parameter describing total mass.
 
  • #35
Bosko said:
There is no parameter of a spherically symmetric object in the solution. For example, the radius .
There is no object at all in the Schwarzschild spacetime. It is a vacuum solution. The assumptions are spherical symmetry of the solution and vacuum.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
14
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K