Modulus in Metals versus Sound Vibration

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the behavior of the modulus in metals, particularly how it relates to temperature changes and sound vibrations. Participants explore the implications of modulus changes on molecular vibrations and the elasticity of metals, as well as the concepts of plastic deformation and the underlying atomic interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that as temperature rises, the modulus decreases, but expresses confusion about its implications for molecular vibrations and elasticity.
  • Another participant explains that increasing temperature causes atoms to move higher in the potential well, effectively reducing the depth of the well and thus the elasticity of the material.
  • It is mentioned that sound waves, being elastic waves, are directly related to the modulus and strain the material.
  • A claim is made that plastic deformation involves the movement of dislocations in metals, which is facilitated by higher temperatures, leading to irreversible deformation.
  • One participant asserts that Young's modulus generally decreases with temperature, providing a rationale based on the asymmetry of the pair potential energy between atoms.
  • A later reply corrects an earlier typo regarding the behavior of Young's modulus with temperature, confirming that it decreases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between temperature and Young's modulus, with some asserting it decreases while others initially suggested it increases. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of these relationships and their implications.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of elasticity and modulus, as well as the specific conditions under which the discussed behaviors occur. The discussion also touches on complex atomic interactions that may not be fully explored.

Kaiera Ai Tanay
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So I'm trying to understand how the modulus works in metals. I understand that when the temperature rises, that means that the modulus decreases. But I do not understand exactly what it is or how it affects the way that the molecules would vibrate for instance, as kinetic sound energy moved through them.

I get that it has to do with elasticity, but is it saying that the elasticity also goes down? The molecules aren't capable of moving as far from equilibrium? And if that's so, why are heated metals more likely to bend? Or is that a density-based issue and not a modulus issue?
 
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Kaiera Ai Tanay said:
So I'm trying to understand how the modulus works in metals. I understand that when the temperature rises, that means that the modulus decreases. But I do not understand exactly what it is or how it affects the way that the molecules would vibrate for instance, as kinetic sound energy moved through them.

I get that it has to do with elasticity, but is it saying that the elasticity also goes down? The molecules aren't capable of moving as far from equilibrium? And if that's so, why are heated metals more likely to bend? Or is that a density-based issue and not a modulus issue?
Young's modulus increases with tempretaure. If you strain a material, you can imagine that you strain the bonds between the atoms. Nor consider the energy between two atoms. At temperature zero in the unstrained case, the atoms are at the lowest.energy position. Straining the bonds means that you have to add energy, this is how Hookes law comes about.

If you increase the temperature, the atoms move higher inside the potential well, making it effectively less deep. This reduces the force you need to strain a bond and thus reduces the elasticity.

Sound waves are nothing but elastic waves, they also astrain the material, so they are directly related to this.

Plastic deformation of metals is a different thing, because this is deformation that causes atoms to actually shift over larger distances (so that the deformation is irreversible). Plasticity is due to the movement of faults in he metal, called dislocations. Their movement is also aided by the additional energy available at higher temperature. In some metals (some steels), this movement gets strongly restricted at low temperatures, making them become very brittle. (Google for "liberty ship fracture" to seean impressive example.)
 
Sonderval said:
Young's modulus increases with tempretaure

It generally decreases with temperature. (I think maybe you made a typo?) The fundamental reason is that the stiffness or Young's modulus corresponds to the negative second derivative of the pair potential energy between atoms, and this interaction is not perfectly symmetric. This asymmetry is also the http://www.mtarr.co.uk/courses/topics/0197_cte/images/ch_cte_imga.gif in metals and ceramics, in which stiffness has an enthalpic origin (as opposed to polymers, in which stiffness can be primarily entropically driven).

If the potential energy well between atoms were perfectly symmetric, the Young's modulus would be temperature independent. Try it yourself; take an https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279359555/figure/fig59/AS:268062939152390@1440922593765/Figure-3-3-Force-and-potential-energy-diagrams-for-a-diatomic-molecule-with-respect-to.png (as a function of atomic distance) and sketch the slope, also as a function of distance. This is the interatomic force, and its negative value is the resistance to stretching. Sketch the slope of that resistance, and you'll get the Young's modulus, which clearly decreases with increasing interatomic distance and thus with increasing temperature.
 
@Mapes
Yes, that was a typo - the explanation in the next paragraph explains why it decreases.
 

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