Motion of electrons in orbitals and shape of orbitals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the motion of electrons in atomic orbitals, specifically focusing on the nature of electron movement within orbitals, the shape of p-orbitals, and the implications of quantum mechanics on these concepts. Participants explore theoretical and conceptual aspects of electron behavior in quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why electrons do not move only along the surface of orbitals and whether their movement is random or follows a definite path.
  • It is proposed that the true physical reality of atoms is described by quantum mechanics, where the concepts of position and momentum differ from classical mechanics.
  • There is a discussion about whether a p-orbital represents a single electron or can represent two electrons due to intrinsic spin.
  • Some participants assert that the p-orbital is dumbbell-shaped due to the non-zero angular momentum of electrons in that orbital.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of electrons not following circular paths, questioning if they would "crash" into the nucleus.
  • One participant suggests that averaging over all possible magnetic quantum numbers results in a spherical representation of the p-orbital, while others challenge this by stating that a p-orbital inherently describes a dumbbell shape.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of wavefunctions and their shapes, particularly in relation to the chemistry of multiple bonds.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of electron movement, the representation of orbitals, and the implications of quantum mechanics. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus reached on several points.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in classical reasoning when applied to quantum mechanics, indicating that traditional concepts may not adequately describe electron behavior. There are also unresolved questions regarding the averaging of magnetic quantum numbers and the implications for orbital shapes.

AudioFlux
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Why don't electrons move only along the surface of orbitals?
Moreover, how do electrons move within orbitals, random movement or do they follow a definite path?
In a p-orbital, does one lobe consist of only one electron?
Why is the p-orbital dumbbell shaped and not spherical?
 
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The true physical reality of atoms is described by Quantum Mechanics.
The concepts of position and momentum are different in quantum mechanics. Think of the position as being spread out in space. (Not technically true, but its a good way to describe it). So the electron doesn't go round in a specific path.
If you've seen a picture of the p-orbital, it likely represents a single electron, with a particular magnetic quantum number. If you average over all possible magnetic quantum numbers, then the p-orbital is spherical.
 
BruceW said:
If you've seen a picture of the p-orbital, it likely represents a single electron, with a particular magnetic quantum number.

But doesn't each orbital represent the electron cloud of two electrons?

If you average over all possible magnetic quantum numbers, then the p-orbital is spherical.

If you average all the magnetic quantum numbers, won't you get 0?

So the electron doesn't go round in a specific path.

If the electron does not go around the nucleus in a circular path, won't it come crashing to the nucleus?
 
AudioFlux said:
Why don't electrons move only along the surface of orbitals?
Moreover, how do electrons move within orbitals, random movement or do they follow a definite path?
In a p-orbital, does one lobe consist of only one electron?
Why is the p-orbital dumbbell shaped and not spherical?

The representation of atomic orbitals in terms of their electron densities just tells you that the majority of said electron density is mostly localized within that volume - not that the electron is bound to the surface contour that is plotted.

Strictly speaking, an orbital is a one-electron wavefunction.

To (over)simplify the discussion, an electron in a p orbital has non-zero angular momentum. When one works through the math for this case, you get the dumbbell-looking electron density.

AudioFlux said:
If the electron does not go around the nucleus in a circular path, won't it come crashing to the nucleus?

Welcome to quantum mechanics. Classical reasoning breaks down here. The notion that electrons "orbit" the nucleus is incorrect.
 
AudioFlux said:
But doesn't each orbital represent the electron cloud of two electrons?
It can represent one or two electrons. This is due to a property of the electron called intrinsic spin.

AudioFlux said:
If you average all the magnetic quantum numbers, won't you get 0?
No, you can have an electron which is in a quantum superposition of all the possible magnetic quantum numbers for the p-orbital, and the wavefunction describing this particle will be symmetric. (not dumbell shaped.)


AudioFlux said:
If the electron does not go around the nucleus in a circular path, won't it come crashing to the nucleus?
Nope. Classical physics < Quantum physics :)
 
"If you average over all possible magnetic quantum numbers, then the p-orbital is spherical".


Surely for a p-orbital with an orbital angular momentum quantum number of 1 the wavefunction describes a dumbell shape. In order for the wavefunction to descibe a spherical orbital the orbital angular momentum quantum number must be 0.
If a p-orbital were indeed spherical almost all of the chemistry associated with multiple bonds would be difficult to explain.
 

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