Movie Classics that totally escape me

[WWGD]

Common Klystron, cheesy joke #37.

Libran, Librarian , ha-ha (not).

 

[mathwonk]

My impression is that a lot of movie "classics" are such because of "cinematic innovation", and not necessarily fun to watch today, e.g. Citizen Kane, Easy Rider, ... the first of which is pretty good in my opinion and the second of which is terrible: well, maybe the early scene is ok where Peter Fonda says something like "we blew it" after they do a drug deal and they ride off on cool bikes to the tune of "The Pusher" by Steppenwolf. I think 2001 was a movie that in the 60's stoners enjoyed watching on an enormous screen while under the influence.

So I suspect "classics" are movies that are either innovative, or feature great acting performances, or terrifically clever scriptwriting, or directing, or cinematography. I have seen almost all the movies on that list of 100 top movies, and think they essentially all have one or more of those qualities, with one exception: Rio Bravo. That to me is a juvenile traditional hollywood shoot-em-up cowboy movie, that I have actually enjoyed watching, but that has absolutely no "classic" qualities in my opinion. I do not know how that one got on there. If they wanted a John Wayne movie, newer than "the Searchers", I would suggest :"The Shootist", which is the only John Wayne movie I myself like, maybe because it also stars Lauren Bacall, Jimmy Stewart, Scatman Crothers, Harry Morgan, Ron Howard, as well as the tv stars Richard Boone, and Hugh O'Brian.

I tend to enjoy movies where the bad guys get their comeuppance and good guys win. So I liked Forrest Gump, The Fugitive, Lonesome Dove, Bad day at Black Rock, Witness, True Believer, as well as Samurai movies like the Samurai trilogy, Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, the Twilight Samurai, ...,, but I also have enjoyed "romantic" comedies like Don Juan deMarco, Alice, Sweet and Downlow, Saving Grace, ...

I also suggest From here to eternity, On the waterfront, The hustler, Witness for the prosecution, Diabolique (in French with Simone Signoret, very scary murder mystery), and I actually was entertained by the first three Jason Bourne movies and that other Matt Damon movie where he plays a brilliant math genius who works as a janitor at MIT. For an adventure movie, there is the 1930's version of Count of Monte Cristo, with Robert Donat, but you may have trouble finding it; the long version in French with Gerard Depardieu is good too, but takes extensive liberties with the novel. Also the Fencing Master (in Spanish), and if you succeed in finding this one let me know where as I would like to see it again sometime.

anyway, thanks for the fun thread.

 

[Bystander]

Bad day at Black Rock

"YES!" Didn't think anyone would ever mention that one.

 

[mathwonk]

@Bystander: Just guessing, I wonder if Don Juan de Marco is a Brando film you could enjoy. also stars Johnny Depp, and Faye Dunaway.

 

[DennisN]

Kesey also wrote "Sometimes a Great Notion" about a twisted clan of lumberjacks up in Oregon. Paul Newman bought the rights and directed a movie also listed as "Never Give an Inch" staring Henry Fonda, Richard Jaekel, Lee Remick and Newman in the principle role. Without spoiling the movie I will say Newman's character faces possibly the worst work day in cinema history.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will check it out!

Starship Troopers.
I had a tough time staying in my seat. At one point, I actually found myself unconsciously trying to crawl up the back of my own theatre seat to escape the painful acting (in particular, the "let's all get tattos" dialogue).

I agree! The acting in that movie is terrible. But for me, Starship Troopers is one of those few films I both like and don't like at the same time; there were some great action scenes in the movie and some cool things, but also terrible things, like the acting. And here is a scene that I thought was funny in the movie: Who needs a knife in a nuke fight?
I liked Heinlein's novel, by the way.

 

[Bystander]

a lot of movie "classics" are such because of "cinematic innovation",

Suspect you've said more than a mouthful here.

a Brando film you could enjoy

The Young Lions, curiously enough; Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty in Bonnie and Clyde exceeded my MDL(lifetime)R for FD. Apocalypse Now/Heart of Darkness, Col. Kurtz---John Voigt did that so much better in Anaconda, Eric Stoltz had the good sense to have his character in a coma through most of that movie.

 

[Klystron]

Thanks for the suggestion, I will check it out!

I agree! The acting in that movie is terrible. But for me, Starship Troopers is one of those few films I both like and don't like at the same time; there were some great action scenes in the movie and some cool things, but also terrible things, like the acting. And here is a scene that I thought was funny in the movie: Who needs a knife in a nuke fight?
I liked Heinlein's novel, by the way.

I learn something new every day on PF: The acting in ST is not the basic problem. Certainly Clancy Brown can carry a scene. Look at how the actors scurry around trying to find their mark; that is, to stand where the camera is going to point. From my limited experience blocking actors on stage, that indicates poor directing.

Clancy probably wants to voice Heinlein's memorable lines about an infiltrator with a knife besting a heavily armed sentry but has to follow the melange about pushing buttons when the eponymous Starships have voice-actuated controls, not push-buttons.

Also, dressy berets are worn off duty and not by boots (raw recruits). True that in the novel Zim breaks a recruit's wrist in training but only by accident. Zim publicly apologizes for the lapse. Heinlein expressly warns against assigning sadists as drill instructors, "they soon lose interest and slack off.".
So, ST an OK flick but no plan to view the sequel.

 

[member 656954]

I think Logan is a recently minted classic. Sophisticated, brutally honest, aggressively violent, it's a story of sacrifice and redemption, entirely unlike any of the X-Men films that came before.

The other sci-fi movie I think is a likewise recent classic is Watchmen. Entirely adult by design, with one of the best baddies in the genre (Matthew Goode as Adrian Veidt is a delight), this does not assume the audience is entirely comprised of 14 year old boys.

 

[pinball1970]

Starship Troopers.
I had a tough time staying in my seat. At one point, I actually found myself unconsciously trying to crawl up the back of my own theatre seat to escape the painful acting (in particular, the "let's all get tattos" dialogue).

It was the same thing I felt during Showgirls. It's the same feeling I get when reading a novice writer's first few attempts at serious writing.

I don't know why Verhoeven directs like this, but it's as if he is trying to make his audience uncomfortable - with a sort of mockery of cliches . To me, it comes across as insincere - he doesn't have the courage of his convictions. He directs as if the thinks you're "uncool" if you don't ironically appreciate truly bad directing.

I thought Starship troopers was totally tongue in cheek

 

[DaveC426913]

I thought Starship troopers was totally tongue in cheek

Yeah, upon reflection, I concluded that's what Verhoeven wanted it to be.

But it didn't wash with me. It reads analogous to someone deliberately dressing in bizarre contentious fashion, knowing others will mock him, but taking solace in the rationalization that he mocked himself first.

I see Verhoeven as not having had the courage of his convictions to put his money where his mouth is to tell a story he actually believes in.

Immature people go on about what they don't like, and how bad this or that is. It takes courage to put your beliefs on the line and say what you do like, and how you can inspire others to think that too. Verhoeven has an obligation, as a director, wielding a zillion dollar budget, to be courageous.

 

[gleem]

Re: Starship Troopers

OK you sucked me in. I ahve only seen parts of the movie and relegated it to B class si-fi never to think about it again until now.

From the Wikipedia article on the movie.

In his DVD commentary, Verhoeven stated his intentions clearly: the film's message is that "War makes fascists of us all". He evoked Nazi Germany's fashion, iconography, and propaganda because he saw it as a natural evolution of the United States after World War II, and especially after the Korean War. "I've heard this film nicknamed All Quiet on theFinal Frontier", he said, "which is actually not far from the truth." Edward Neumeier (who had previously worked with Verhoeven on RoboCop) broadly concurs, although he sees a satire on human history rather than solely the United States.[6] Verhoeven says his satirical use of irony and hyperbole is "playing with fascism or fascist imagery to point out certain aspects of American society... of course, the movie is about 'Let's all go to war and let's all die.'"

I guess he had a purpose.

 

[DaveC426913]

"I've heard this film nicknamed All Quiet on theFinal Frontier"

Around here, we call it "Melrose Space".

 

[mathwonk]

I don't know if anyone here would consider them enjoyable, but a few movies by Sergei Eisenstein feature such striking photography that they are considered classics and made a lasting visual impression on me, such as some scenes from Ivan the Terrible, and maybe Alexader Nevsky? But I myself didn't quite get his highly recognized Battleship Potemkin.

 

[bhusebye]

I enjoyed Bladerunner, Clints Spagetti Westerns, The Man with No Name, The Shootist, Star Wars, Soylent Green, The Music Man, Wizard of Oz (scared the crap out of me when I was 2), and some of the worst movies trying to be bad on purpose Space Truckers and Cabin Boy. I even liked Water World but I am into semi flaky SciFi/Fantasy

 

[Klystron]

I don't know if anyone here would consider them enjoyable, but a few movies by Sergei Eisenstein feature such striking photography that they are considered classics and made a lasting visual impression on me, such as some scenes from Ivan the Terrible, and maybe Alexader Nevsky? But I myself didn't quite get his highly recognized Battleship Potemkin.

I have seen (but not heard [pun]) "Battleship Potemkin" and "October" as part of a college film festival featuring Communist directors, mostly black-listed but a few Soviet. I actually preferred Warren Beatty's "Reds" about Jack Reed and Emma Goldman. Jack Nicholson is memorable as chronically wasted playwright Eugene O'Neill, calling out the upper-class elites pretending to slum with the 'Working Man' while living on rich allowances.

The film teachers helped explain the themes in Potemkin. I understand the concepts and the historical importance of the mutiny but cannot say I understand Eisenstein. I will try to view "Ivan the Terrible" and "Alexander Nevsky". Thanks.

 

[Bystander]

Battleship Potemkin.

concepts and the historical importance of the mutiny but cannot say I understand Eisenstein.

So, I'm not alone.

into semi flaky SciFi/Fantasy

 

[gleem]

So what makes a movie a classic? Here is one view.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/05/entertainment/movies-what-makes-a-classic/index.html
Like beauty, the eye of the beholder?

 

[DaveC426913]

Not a classic but I really enjoyed it. The Ballad of Buster Scruggs.
A film containing six shirt stories with a Western theme, but done by the Coen Brothers (O Brother Where Art Thou) with Tim Blake Nelson (Delmar "We thought you were a toad!" from OB,WAT).
Some vignettes are hilarious, some are dark. Some are very dark.

 

[member 656954]

Having recently seen Once Upon a Time ... in Hollywood, I am still wondering if Tarantino has crafted a classic or merely a movie about dudes doing stuff that we get to watch along with and then it ends.

Probably, classics are not classic immediately upon release, but this seems to qualify as a movie that is likely to totally escape the viewer!

 

[Michael Price]

If they wanted a John Wayne movie, newer than "the Searchers", I would suggest :"The Shootist", which is the only John Wayne movie I myself like, maybe because it also stars Lauren Bacall, Jimmy Stewart, Scatman Crothers, Harry Morgan, Ron Howard, as well as the tv stars Richard Boone, and Hugh O'Brian.

You didn't like, The man who shot Liberty Valence?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Shot_Liberty_Valance

 

[Michael Price]

The other sci-fi movie I think is a likewise recent classic is Watchmen. Entirely adult by design, with one of the best baddies in the genre (Matthew Goode as Adrian Veidt is a delight), this does not assume the audience is entirely comprised of 14 year old boys.

The movie grated on me because they changed two of the best lines from the comic book:
'thermodynamic miracles' and 'my perspective'

 

[Klystron]

You didn't like, The man who shot Liberty Valence?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Shot_Liberty_Valance

If this is an open question, then my answer is yes and no.

As a child, I liked the movie. Wayne's character foreshadows his ultimate fate in "The Shootist". Scatman Crother's character demonstrates loyalty; Stewart's peace and rule of law. No doubt Lee Marvin makes the meanest bad guy outlaw in film.

As an educated adult, even allowing for the movie's time and place, the racism rankles. Scatman should take the shot not just play gun-bearer. The helpless wimpy lawyer quaking in his boots from big bad Liberty rankles as much. Louis L'Amour answered this slight by creating an entire family of gun-toting lawyers in Western fiction who confront bullies while upholding rule of law. Said one lawyer to his young brother about suppressing violence,
"Did ya' read him from the Book?"
"Nope, but I showed him the pictures."

In real life Isom Dart held his own in much worse circumstances while Bat and brother Ed Masterson both practiced law and fought outlaws often with a badge of office.

 

[pinball1970]

Yeah, upon reflection, I concluded that's what Verhoeven wanted it to be.

But it didn't wash with me. It reads analogous to someone deliberately dressing in bizarre contentious fashion, knowing others will mock him, but taking solace in the rationalization that he mocked himself first.

I see Verhoeven as not having had the courage of his convictions to put his money where his mouth is to tell a story he actually believes in.

Immature people go on about what they don't like, and how bad this or that is. It takes courage to put your beliefs on the line and say what you do like, and how you can inspire others to think that too. Verhoeven has an obligation, as a director, wielding a zillion dollar budget, to be courageous.

I watched this at the cinema, I hate the flicks because you always have kids talking or doing annoying stuff but I remember this. What was that film? What was it? Before I was out of the cinema I was asking this. Was this a statement on Vietnam? Iraq? Government? NATO? The acting was very strange in parts, last scene, 'its afraid!' followed by the lead lady who was just impaled in the shoulder horrifically, walking and laughing with old school mates. That was tongue in cheek and something else.

 

[DaveC426913]

I have no idea whatever what anyone saw in "Pretty Woman".

I am comfortable enough with my manliness to enjoy rom-coms, and my wife watched it with me. We kept looking at each other, going "What? Why?"

Now, to be fair, we didn't see it first run; we saw it after Roberts became a hit, so it didn't help that we already knew her with that giant disarming smile, so there's no way we could see her as a hooker (even one with a heart of gold).

 

[member 656954]

The movie [Watchmen] grated on me because they changed two of the best lines from the comic book:
'thermodynamic miracles' and 'my perspective'

I had the advantage of never even knowing there was a comic, so it was entirely fresh. I'd say, in general, that a movie from a book or graphic novel is pretty much never going to live up to the original content.

 

[Bystander]

I have no idea whatever what anyone saw in "Pretty Woman".

Just checked IMDB, and can't say there's anything she's done that I've been able to sit through start to finish---The Pelican Brief in about four or five different sittings for Denzel Washington and the environmental story (non-existent), plus no conclusion.

 

[mathwonk]

I confess also to having appreciated Liberty Valance in the distant past, but not so much for Wayne's role in it, and more recently I noticed that Wayne's character seems to commit murder.

 

[Klystron]

Since we are discussing recent classics, I confess to liking Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary's 1991 "Reservoir Dogs". Many friends told me I would like it despite the violence, "They talk constantly but never show the actual heist. You'll like it."

One of my favorite crime dramas, despite the violence, mild in comparison to most crime movies. Terrific acting, writing, sets, cars, music, directing and Tarantino fills a small role himself as "Mr. Brown". Lawrence Tierny, "Joe Cabot", starred in old time crime flicks before serving time for extortion, also played Elaine's scary father on "Seinfeld".

 

[mathwonk]

For a classic scene of an interrupted duel, that I prefer to the one in Liberty Valance, there is the near - bar - fight in From Here to Eternity, wherein Sarge confronts Fatso Judson, about to knife fight with Prew, arguing something like: "He's in my company and if you kill him you just make extra paperwork for me". This recalls a situation involving friends of mine working the midnight shift at a gas station in Roxbury, Mass., in the 60's, and threatened by a knife wielding employee. The foreman responded that the knife wielder could cut anyone he liked from the dayshift, but that my friends were on his midnight shift and he wasn't about to let them be disabled. So for me, that scene had a ring of reality.

 

[member 656954]

But it [Starship Troopers] didn't wash with me. It reads analogous to someone deliberately dressing in bizarre contentious fashion, knowing others will mock him, but taking solace in the rationalization that he mocked himself first.

Heinlein hammered out the novel in less than a month and it's generally taken as a statement on his view that the morals and military standards were in serious social decline after WWII. I devoured it - and his other novels - but even as a teenager, his right wing views were pretty clear...and I didn't even understand what right wing meant at the time.

I guess that perspective of decline, in the late 1990s when the movie was filmed, probably did not resonate as readily, and I recall when watching it that it did seem very jokey, rather than having the seriousness that Heinlein was calling for.

So, was Verhoeven the right director for the content? Debatable. Was it a good movie? Not really. Is it a classic? Not at all.

 

[DaveC426913]

Since we are discussing recent classics, I confess to liking Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary's 1991 "Reservoir Dogs". Many friends told me I would like it despite the violence, "They talk constantly but never show the actual heist. You'll like it."

Had one of the most riveting suspense scenes in modern cinema. I swear I chewed my nails to the first knuckle.

 

[Michael Price]

I confess also to having appreciated Liberty Valance in the distant past, but not so much for Wayne's role in it, and more recently I noticed that Wayne's character seems to commit murder.

It was more a James Stewart, Lee Marvin movie. Never a great fan of John Wayne.

 

[Michael Price]

Since we are discussing recent classics, I confess to liking Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary's 1991 "Reservoir Dogs". Many friends told me I would like it despite the violence, "They talk constantly but never show the actual heist. You'll like it."

One of my favorite crime dramas, despite the violence, mild in comparison to most crime movies. Terrific acting, writing, sets, cars, music, directing and Tarantino fills a small role himself as "Mr. Brown". Lawrence Tierny, "Joe Cabot", starred in old time crime flicks before serving time for extortion, also played Elaine's scary father on "Seinfeld".

I loved "Reservoir Dogs" - great opening scene with the discussion of tipping! Tarantino's more recent stuff just hasn't been as good; he's definitely lost his touch.

 

[DennisN]

I am going to watch The Wizard of Oz since it is at number one on the list

I have seen it now, and I liked it. Particularly the story, which have quite a few interesting "universal" messages, which would be a shame to mention here since it would spoil it for those who haven't seen the movie. It's also a story that can be interpreted in different ways. But the good story is as I understand it largely thanks to the original novel.

The movie also gets a big extra plus from me for this (SPOILER WARNING!):

Spoiler

The movie wonderfully mixes reality and fantasy in one and the same movie, since the fantasy story resembles Dorothy's reality. This is further enhanced since the same actors are used in both the reality story and the fantasy story. I actually did not get that until the end of the movie, and this pleased me very much. Quite powerful.

I don't know if this role setup was in the original novel or not.

Furthermore, one of my favorite songs was in the movie, Somewhere over the Rainbow. I've always liked that one in particular.

And last, but not least, I think Judy Garland did an excellent performance as Dorothy.

I can easily understand why this movie is so liked. I will keep it in my collection .

 

[pinball1970]

I have seen it now, and I liked it. Particularly the story, which have quite a few interesting "universal" messages, which would be a shame to mention here since it would spoil it for those who haven't seen the movie. It's also a story that can be interpreted in different ways. But the good story is as I understand it largely thanks to the original novel.

The movie also gets a big extra plus from me for this (SPOILER WARNING!):

Spoiler

The movie wonderfully mixes reality and fantasy in one and the same movie, since the fantasy story resembles Dorothy's reality. This is further enhanced since the same actors are used in both the reality story and the fantasy story. I actually did not get that until the end of the movie, and this pleased me very much. Quite powerful.

I don't know if this role setup was in the original novel or not.

Furthermore, one of my favorite songs was in the movie, Somewhere over the Rainbow. I've always liked that one in particular.

And last, but not least, I think Judy Garland did an excellent performance as Dorothy.

I can easily understand why this movie is so liked. I will keep it in my collection .

WOO is great. Can you remember when the scarecrow recites a maths equation at the end? When he gets his diploma?