News Muhammad Caricatures: Middle East Reaction & Nordic Press

[WarrenPlatts]

Actually, you can look at it right here on PF.

Isn't freedom of the press a great thing?

 

[Cyrus]

Warren put tags so we can see it, if you got it online.

 

[Hurkyl]

I don't think it would be legal to do so, would it?

 

[Moonbear]

I agree, it's copyrighted material, so we can't reproduce it here. Sorry Warren, they'll just have to follow the links provided.

 

[Curious3141]

This bit is dynamite, and puts the whole thing in perspective.

Yet when a delegation of Danish imams went to the Middle East to "discuss" the issue of the cartoons with senior officials and prominent Islamic scholars, the imams openly distributed a booklet that showed 15 images -- not only the original 12 cartoons, but three fraudulent anti-Mohammed depictions that were much more offensive than the ones published in Denmark. It is now thought that these three bonus images are what ignited the outrage in the Muslim world. The newspaper Ekstra Bladet obtained a copy of the booklet and presented the three offensive images on its Web site (though not in an easy-to-find place). All look like low-quality photocopies. Here they are:
(Hat tip: Gerry, Martin H., and rfs.)

So that's it : the major cause of this whole furore are 3 images cooked up by MUSLIMS ! Not just any old Muslims, HOLY MEN ! Just to inflame the situation further.

[edited out call for violence]

 

[Cyrus]

So that's it : the major cause of this whole furore are 3 images cooked up by MUSLIMS ! Not just any old Muslims, HOLY MEN ! Just to inflame the situation further.

[mentor edited out the call for violence]

No, they should be exposed for their lies. That would be far worse to them, and more productive to Islams image.

 

[WarrenPlatts]

[edited call for violence]

HAHA! Death threats against mullahs are OK, but PF will not allow the evil cartoon to be published here. The copyright objection is just lame--no one here believes you. State your real reason for not publishing the cartoon--or else lock this thread if this is a topic that should not be discussed.

edit from mentor: you are right, we don't do calls for violence here either.

 

[vanesch]

What you are saying is, muslims should not streotype all Danes. Or all Westerners.

They can stereotype. They cannot call for hate or violence (that's NOT part of freedom of speech anymore - at least in most European countries ; I don't know in the US). Calling for violence is considered as an attempt to make people commit crimes.
Also, freedom of speech DOES engage the speaker's responsability: if you say in public, things that bring prejudice to others, that's not unlawful in itself, but you can be sued by the persons who suffered the prejudice by your words (at least if you cannot prove that what you say, is the truth). So, according to this view, Immams who call for boycotting Danish products because (untrue statement:) the Danish police burns Corans in public, could in principle be sued for the consequences of their calling, and financially compensate the estimated losses to Danish companies.

 

[Curious3141]

No, they should be exposed for their lies. That would be far worse to them, and more productive to Islams image.

Do you think their fanatical, hysterical believers are going to believe "infidels" when they try to tell them their leaders are lying to them ?

We're talking massive brainwashing here. These mullahs, imams whatever are strengthening their grip on their followers by legitimising the bloodshed of innocent people.

[edit: calls for violence are not to be written here]

 

[vanesch]

The call for violent action against Imams is going to be edited out...

 

[Cyrus]

Do you think their fanatical, hysterical believers are going to believe "infidels" when they try to tell them their leaders are lying to them ?

We're talking massive brainwashing here. These mullahs, imams whatever are strengthening their grip on their followers by legitimising the bloodshed of innocent people.

[mentor edited out the call for violence]

Do you even realize what would happen if you [did your violent act] with the amount of power they control? That idea is ludacris. You might want to think twice on that one. Do you really want 2billion pissed off Muslims, because if you do that, you will get all the muslims radical or not mad at you.

 

[WarrenPlatts]

They can stereotype. They cannot call for hate or violence (that's NOT part of freedom of speech anymore - at least in most European countries ; I don't know in the US). Calling for violence is considered as an attempt to make people commit crimes.

I'm glad that France has come to her senses, but the placards by those protesters in England were beyond the pale. A sampling:

AS MUSLIMS WE UNITE & ARE PREPARED TO FIGHT

ANNIHILATE THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM

EUROPE YOU'LL COME CRAWLING WHEN THE MUJAHIDEEN COME ROARING

FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION GO TO HELL!

EUROPE YOU WILL PAY. FANTASTIC 4 ARE ON THEIR WAY!

MASSACRE THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM!

EUROPE IS THE CANCER ISLAM IS THE ANSWER

EXTERMINATE THOSE WHO SLANDER ISLAM

SLAY THOSE WHO WOULD INSULT ISLAM

BUTCHER THOSE WHO MOCK ISLAM

EUROPE YOU WILL PAY. YOUR EXTERMINATION IS ON IT'S WAY

EUROPE YOU WILL PAY. DEMOLITION IS ON IT'S WAY!

ANNIHILATE THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM!

------------------------
The religion of peace. . . . .

How come we don't see Bhuddists in the new much these days?

 

[Cyrus]

Warren, let me explain something to you. The media needs something to put so people watch. They play this small group of fanatics, because they make so much noise. Stop being so ignorant man. Did you see 1.2 billion people protesting? NO, YOU DIDN'T. Because the majority don't think that way. The media overplays anything it shows, so that it gets blown way out of proportion. Are all americans like the KKK that have protests? If the media played that image 24-7, people would think all americans are red neck skin heads... you see my point?

 

[WarrenPlatts]

Do you even realize what would happen if you [did your violent act] with the amount of power they control? That idea is ludacris. You might want to think twice on that one. Do you really want 2billion pissed off Muslims, because if you do that, you will get all the muslims radical or not mad at you.

You're wrong Cyrus. Not ALL Muslims want to kill the rest of us. I would hope that the "many" as you say, just want to provide for their families.

 

[Cyrus]

You're wrong Cyrus. Not ALL Muslims want to kill the rest of us. I would hope that the "many" as you say, just want to provide for their families.

Of course not; however, what I am saying is that if you go around shooting all the imams, which is a stupid idea, you WILL get ALL the muslims angry. Do you think americans would allow muslims to go around shooting radical christian preachers? I think not.

 

[vanesch]

I'm glad that France has come to her senses,

What's that supposed to mean ?

but the placards by those protesters in England were beyond the pale. A sampling:

AS MUSLIMS WE UNITE & ARE PREPARED TO FIGHT

ANNIHILATE THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM

EUROPE YOU'LL COME CRAWLING WHEN THE MUJAHIDEEN COME ROARING

FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION GO TO HELL!

EUROPE YOU WILL PAY. FANTASTIC 4 ARE ON THEIR WAY!

MASSACRE THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM!

EUROPE IS THE CANCER ISLAM IS THE ANSWER

EXTERMINATE THOSE WHO SLANDER ISLAM

SLAY THOSE WHO WOULD INSULT ISLAM

BUTCHER THOSE WHO MOCK ISLAM

EUROPE YOU WILL PAY. YOUR EXTERMINATION IS ON IT'S WAY

EUROPE YOU WILL PAY. DEMOLITION IS ON IT'S WAY!

ANNIHILATE THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM!

I don't know in how much the above statements are lawful under "freedom of speech" in the UK. I'm for instance sure that in France you could be sued for some of them, who explicitly call for violence.
Of course, then there is the more pragmatic attitude of having the idiots have their demonstration, or go in with massive police force which would heat up even more the situation...

 

[WarrenPlatts]

I, at least, have never advocated shooting imams, mullahs, high priests, shamans, pastors, ministers, rabbis, chaplains or whathaveyou, unless they actually deserved it. (I'm not against the death penalty. Sorry.) If there should be a limit to freedom of speech, it should be against the types in Britain who promulgate hate. I thought they just passed a law in the UK that would allow the government to take steps against people like this. Those guys should have been rounded up, their fingerprints and DNA taken, and held until there was no doubt that they have no Al Quaeda connections.

The saddest picture I saw was of that little boy holding the "EUROPE YOU'LL COME CRAWLING WHEN THE MUJAHIDEEN COME ROARING" placard. It just goes to show how much they really care about the future.

 

[vanesch]

If there should be a limit to freedom of speech, it should be against the types in Britain who promulgate hate. I thought they just passed a law in the UK that would allow the government to take steps against people like this. Those guys should have been rounded up, their fingerprints and DNA taken, and held until there was no doubt that they have no Al Quaeda connections.

That's what would happen to them, in France (at least, according to legal texts ; authorities probably would not dare to do so and spill more oil on the fire...)

 

[Cyrus]

I, at least, have never advocated shooting imams, mullahs, high priests, shamans, pastors, ministers, rabbis, chaplains or whathaveyou, unless they actually deserved it.

Yes, I would like to shoot them in theory but the realistic implications of doing so would make them MORE dangerous than if they were alive. You will turn them into martyrs.

(I'm not against the death penalty. Sorry.)

Me neither.

Those guys should have been rounded up, their fingerprints and DNA taken, and held until there was no doubt that they have no Al Quaeda connections.

Why do they need to have terrorist connections? They were angry about a racial insult, not against the government.

The saddest picture I saw was of that little boy holding the "EUROPE YOU'LL COME CRAWLING WHEN THE MUJAHIDEEN COME ROARING" placard. It just goes to show how much they really care about the future.

How is this much different from a KKK rally? If I were black, I would find a KKK rally just as dangerous to me and my family, right? They HAVE killed blacks before, and they DO talk about killing blacks. Freedom of speech is the right of everyone, despite the color of the fools skin that say it.

 

[WarrenPlatts]

Wow Cyrus, you were starting to make sense to me until you got this far:

Why do they need to have terrorist connections? They were angry about a racial insult, not against the government.

I would suggest the slight possibility that they at least have indirect terrorist connections through their mullahs or other spiritual leaders. When you go out and call for the extermination of not just cartoonists, but all of Europe as well, well then I would hope that MI5 and Interpol would check into the situation.

And as you yourself have made well known, Islam is not confined to any specific race. The vast majority of Muslims are not Arabs.

How is this much different from a KKK rally? If I were black, I would find a KKK rally just as dangerous to me and my family, right? They HAVE killed blacks before, and they DO talk about killing blacks. Freedom of speech is the right of everyone, despite the color of the fools skin that say it.

That's right. It's not different, and it needs to be put down just as strongly. The United States fought the most bloody war in its history over this--and thank God the damn Yankee carpetbagging mother ******* won--and my fingers are rebelling as I type this. There's a limit to freedom of speech--we've all had our posts deleted tonight--the Danish cartoon did not cross that line, but those Islamist punks did.

 

[WarrenPlatts]

That's what would happen to them, in France (at least, according to legal texts ; authorities probably would not dare to do so and spill more oil on the fire...)

This is why I am worried about France's ability to survive except in name alone.

 

[Cyrus]

I would suggest the slight possibility that they at least have indirect terrorist connections through their mullahs or other spiritual leaders. When you go out and call for the extermination of not just cartoonists, but all of Europe as well, well then I would hope that MI5 and Interpol would check into the situation.

Yes, but as you are aware, a lot of those KKK memebers, are recruited by fanatic preachers, that tell them GOD has made them the super race. They have a connection as well. Does the KKK not call for the extermination of ALL other non-white races, by definition? Yet they still do not represent the majority, not even the minority of American opinon on foreigners.

There's a limit to freedom of speech--we've all had our posts deleted tonight--the Danish cartoon did not cross that line, but those Islamist punks did.

Yes, there is a limit. Look at the limit the KKK, for example take their speech. I think the people that made such harsh threats were a small minority. Furthermore, they can protest as much as they like. Until they act on the threat, we really just can't say if they are blowing off steam, or if they intend on acting out. What does the evidence show us, have they acted out, other than burning some trees?

 

[vanesch]

This is why I am worried about France's ability to survive except in name alone.

Oh, well, that's good enough, no ? :shy:

Seriously, there's always the balance between what is *right in principle* but would, practically, generate such a mess, that one should maybe think twice, on one hand, and a practical attitude that denies so much every principle that one stands for, that one has become a total prostitute on the other hand. The right way is in the middle somewhere, no ? It's like a market economy: principles have a high, but finite price. The price you're willing to pay can be relatively high, but when reacting according to a certain principle would cost you much more than what you think it's really worth, you don't go for the deal. Sending in uproar police against a demonstration which is already the fruit of high irrationality and heated minds, is maybe not, pragmatically, the best deal. Letting them have their demonstration is probably the best thing if this can let off some steam from the boiler.

I have to say that I'm quite satisfied with the French attitude vs. the ME (for your information, I'm not french, I only live here, so I'm not exposing some form of silly patriotism), it seems to be trying to find the right balance between principles and pragmatism. That cannot be said about everybody

 

[WarrenPlatts]

Seriously, there's always the balance between what is *right in principle* but would, practically, generate such a mess, that one should maybe think twice, on one hand, and a practical attitude that denies so much every principle that one stands for, that one has become a total prostitute on the other hand. The right way is in the middle somewhere, no ? It's like a market economy: principles have a high, but finite price. The price you're willing to pay can be relatively high, but when reacting according to a certain principle would cost you much more than what you think it's really worth, you don't go for the deal. Sending in uproar police against a demonstration which is already the fruit of high irrationality and heated minds, is maybe not, pragmatically, the best deal. Letting them have their demonstration is probably the best thing if this can let off some steam from the boiler.

I have to say that I'm quite satisfied with the French attitude vs. the ME (for your information, I'm not french, I only live here, so I'm not exposing some form of silly patriotism), it seems to be trying to find the right balance between principles and pragmatism. That cannot be said about everybody.

There are some things that do not have a market price. If you don't believe me, just ask the Islamofascists.

 

[vanesch]

There are some things that do not have a market price. If you don't believe me, just ask the Islamofascists.

But aren't we all arguing that they are wrong ? Why then fall into the same trap ?

 

[WarrenPlatts]

Yes, but as you are aware, a lot of those KKK memebers, are recruited by fanatic preachers, that tell them GOD has made them the super race. They have a connection as well. Does the KKK not call for the extermination of ALL other non-white races, by definition? Yet they still do not represent the majority, not even the minority of American opinon on foreigners.

Yes, there is a limit. Look at the limit the KKK, for example take their speech. I think the people that made such harsh threats were a small minority. Furthermore, they can protest as much as they like. Until they act on the threat, we really just can't say if they are blowing off steam, or if they intend on acting out. What does the evidence show us, have they acted out, other than burning some trees?

The KKK is ancient history.

I am an unreconstructed descendent of rebels and Mormons that might be considered to have a legitimate excuse to fight against the feds. I don't know when your people came to the United States, but my ancestors actually fought the American Civil Wars. But I'm over it. I shall not be an apologist for the KKK like you are for OBL and his gang. Really, defending the Islamists who would threaten to exterminate Europe over a Danish cartoon by comparing them to the KKK is not a compelling argument.

Which is strange. You seem to be, Cyrus, an ordinary beer-drinking, NASCAR loving, patriotic American. What gives? You could actually serve us well if you'd get off your high horse and realize the truth.

 

[Cyrus]

Well, I am a beer-drinking NASCAS loving, patroic American. I am just careful not to be a blindly follow the leader knows best uninformed american. Why don't they have NASCAR in DC area...

 

[Cyrus]

I shall not be an apologist for the KKK like you are for OBL and his gang. Really, defending the Islamists who would threaten to exterminate Europe over a Danish cartoon by comparing them to the KKK is not a compelling argument.

Im not defending them I am defending their rights. They can say whatever they want, no matter how awful, but because its directed at Europe they can't stomach it. Well, they did direct that cartoon at the Middle East. You get what you deserve, don't cry about it after you know what you did deliberately. Because that's called a double standard.

 

[Curious3141]

Do you even realize what would happen if you [did your violent act] with the amount of power they control? That idea is ludacris. You might want to think twice on that one. Do you really want 2billion pissed off Muslims, because if you do that, you will get all the muslims radical or not mad at you.

I am not advocating "the violent act" (this wasn't censored, I decided to be nebulous to preempt censorship) on ALL imams or holy men. The ones who peacefully guide their flock will of course, NOT be touched, they are the examples we need.

OTOH, imams who do pervert the faith and call for the blood of innocents need a sticky end to come to them. If possible, an arrest, a trial, a jail term, but I know that these snakes wield enough power to influence their followers from jail to commit even more atrocities to pressure the govt for their freedom. And I think most Muslim countries live in terrible fear of the power wielded by the imams, especially the radical ones we all love to despise.

I think it's time for that power to end. OK, "shooting" was a hyperbole borne out of frustration, I would at least like to see extradition to a secular country with life imprisonment for them.

And fear of 2 billion Muslims is not going to change my mind. If they are stupid enough to support murdering bastards like these particular holy men, they are my enemies, and I will not cower before enemies. What I hope for is for sanity to prevail amongs the majority of Muslims, but if they rise up over this, so be it, we fight. Because right is right.

 

[Cyrus]

BUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUM

And fear of 2 billion Muslims is not going to change my mind. If they are stupid enough to support murdering bastards like these particular holy men, they are my enemies, and I will not cower before enemies. What I hope for is for sanity to prevail amongs the majority of Muslims, but if they rise up over this, so be it, we fight. Because right is right.

You and warren seem to beat the drums of war. lol


Yes, you talk tough, but they are just as tough if not worse. You seem to like to throw gasoline on fire to see what will happen. I don't recommend that.

I am not advocating "the violent act" (this wasn't censored, I decided to be nebulous to preempt censorship) on ALL imams or holy men. The ones who peacefully guide their flock will of course, NOT be touched, they are the examples we need.

And to what extent do you determine who is extreme enough to live or die. So now you are going to basically run islam? Now your hosing the fire with gasoline.

OTOH, imams who do pervert the faith and call for the blood of innocents need a sticky end to come to them. If possible, an arrest, a trial, a jail term, but I know that these snakes wield enough power to influence their followers from jail to commit even more atrocities to pressure the govt for their freedom. And I think most Muslim countries live in terrible fear of the power wielded by the imams, especially the radical ones we all love to despise.

Yes, jail would be acceptable. They would not be martyrs. A trial is tricky, you don't want them to come off as being put in there by an unfair trial due to corrupt non-religious government. Again, adding more fuel to that fire.

At this point, you have pumped more gas into this fire than a Kuwaiti oil field.

 

[sanchecl]

If the majority of Muslims are peace-loving folks that simply want to provide for their families, where is this majority's voice of condemnation about the violence being advocated by such a small group of extremists? I agree that the media have a nasty habit of only airing sensational soundbites that ususally don't represent the whole story but one doesn't have to look very hard to get the rest of the story that didn't catch headlines. That doesn't seem to be the case with this story.

Where are the heads of state or religious leaders from the Middle East on this? Proclaiming the tolerant virtues of Islam? No! Calling for calm and reason? No! At best, I think one can say that some of them are refraining from fanning the flames too much.

Islam, near as I can tell, is not a religion of tolerance and peace. Islam does have one leg up on the KKK though: you have the opportunity to convert to Islam but it is a bit more difficult to change the color of one's skin.

 

[WarrenPlatts]

Where are the heads of state or religious leaders from the Middle East on this? Proclaiming the tolerant virtues of Islam? No! Calling for calm and reason? No! At best, I think one can say that some of them are refraining from fanning the flames too much.

The sad fact my brother is that this is the best I've been able to come up with so far: Islamic Rulings on Warfare.

Leave it to the United States Army (USA) to uncover the truth.

 

[Curious3141]

BUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUM

You and warren seem to beat the drums of war. lol


Yes, you talk tough, but they are just as tough if not worse. You seem to like to throw gasoline on fire to see what will happen. I don't recommend that.




And to what extent do you determine who is extreme enough to live or die. So now you are going to basically run islam? Now your hosing the fire with gasoline.



Yes, jail would be acceptable. They would not be martyrs. A trial is tricky, you don't want them to come off as being put in there by an unfair trial due to corrupt non-religious government. Again, adding more fuel to that fire.

At this point, you have pumped more gas into this fire than a Kuwaiti oil field.

I don't call living in fear real living.

If you think the things I've said are fueling some fire then GOOD. Let's hope it burns this archaic sixteenth century mindset down.

You can go and play pacifist/sympathiser. It didn't work for Hitler and it won't work now. If it comes down to it and these indignant "faithful" are knocking down my door, I will shoot to kill, or die trying.

Censor *that* if you want.

 

[Art]

I don't call living in fear real living.

If you think the things I've said are fueling some fire then GOOD. Let's hope it burns this archaic sixteenth century mindset down.

You can go and play pacifist/sympathiser. It didn't work for Hitler and it won't work now. If it comes down to it and these indignant "faithful" are knocking down my door, I will shoot to kill, or die trying.

Censor *that* if you want.

It's ironic that this thread was started to condemn muslims for their protests over the publication of cartoons. Many posters (myself included) felt that they had gone too far especially in regard to their torching of embassies and yet having criticised them for over reaction we now have people of the 'free world' equally guilty of over reacting in their responses to the muslim's over reaction.

Here through this small international microcosm it is easy to see how conflicts fueled by prejudice and bigotry can quickly escalate through leaps and bounds into all out war.

 

[Moonbear]

Those seem to be good last words for the thread Art, and now it's closed. I've had to pick up too much trash in here and as interesting as much of the discussion was, this thread is requiring far too much babysitting.