Or what? We put sanctions on Russia? "Must" to me implies there is an enforcement mechanism that is going to make it happen. Really?Astronuc said:All Russian military must leave Ukraine!
Sanctioning China would be much like sanctioning ourselves our economies are so intertwined. Russia was relatively easy for us. China would be a nightmare.StevieTNZ said:If the Chinese are giving equipment to Russia, then China should be sanctioned just as bad as Russia. plane @ simple
"The time has come, the walrus said..."phinds said:Sanctioning China would be much like sanctioning ourselves our economies are so intertwined.
Easy to explain - It's your country at risk, so don't poke the bear and give it an excuse to attack. Attempt to play nice and hope a better resolution comes about, rather than invasion. A stategy that can work at times to de-escalate, in this case not. It could be a reason, though, that fresh conscripts were sent in the beginning rather than a full brunt heavy force, with Ukraine being overrun in a short time.Astronuc said:there was some denial on the part of the Ukrainian government,
I seriously doubt that an attack on Poland is in the cards.pinball1970 said:If he dares attack Poland? NATO?
Why the (or possibly lab's).artis said:China is a funny country, no matter what you accuse them off they always deny it and claim it's disinformation and then when a world wide pandemic starts in one of their cities (or possibly lab's) then they say the US soldiers brought it to them... Not sure whether to laugh or cry
Paraphrase from an ancient Greek tragedy.Truth is the first casualty of war.
That would be Alfred Nobel.256bits said:Read up on Noble, yes the Noble Prize guy, and his contribution to explosives and the result towards the mass destruction of people and cities.
Nobel's most famous invention was dynamite, a safer and easier means of harnessing the explosive power of nitroglycerin; it was patented in 1867 and was soon used worldwide for mining and infrastructure development.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...an-expected/articleshow/55975685.cms?from=mdrJoseph Wilbrand, a German chemist discovered Trinitrotoluene (TNT) in 1863 for use as a yellow dye. It wasn't until 1902 that the devastating power of TNT was fully realized and it was adopted as an explosive in time for extensive use by both sides in World War I and World War II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentaerythritol_tetranitratePentaerythritol tetranitrate was first prepared and patented in 1894 by the explosives manufacturer Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff A.G. of Cologne, Germany. The production of PETN started in 1912, when the improved method of production was patented by the German government.
Maybe time to bring the supply chain home.phinds said:Sanctioning China would be much like sanctioning ourselves our economies are so intertwined.
Remember all things change. Putin is my age...he could die tomorrow. Nukes are forever.256bits said:Attempt to play nice and hope a better resolution comes about, rather than invasion.
What was that title they used to bestow?StevieTNZ said:https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainme...her-own-live-tv-broadcast-with-antiwar-banner
Russian editor storms into her own live TV broadcast with anti-war banner
Don't you mean FORMER Russian editor?StevieTNZ said:Russian editor storms into her own live TV broadcast with anti-war banner
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europ...-tragedy-of-war-in-ukraine-dies-with-her-babypinball1970 said:Anyway, the lady who was brought out on a stretcher from the maternity hospital made the headlines a few days ago. I'm sure you saw it.
Now, the AP reports that the woman and her baby died in horrific conditions in the aftermath of the attack on the hospital – arriving for surgery with her pelvis crushed and hip detached.
Surgeon Timur Marin told the AP that medics delivered the baby via caesarean section but that the infant showed “no signs of life”.
StevieTNZ said:
Are you familiar with "Stalin and his Hangmen"? The answer is, yes. The labor pool is also the guest list.hutchphd said:This is all foreign to me. Is it really possible to build Gulags fast enough? Is it?
How can it be sedition? The US is at peace with both sides of this conflict. How does this differ from Saudi Arabia and Yemen?hutchphd said:here are laws about sedition for a reason.
That's more the so-called 'leaders' of the US and EU. I'm not seeing much leadership at the moment.phinds said:"Must" to me implies there is an enforcement mechanism that is going to make it happen.
I agree it's not sedition, and the US is at peace militarily with Russia, but the US has imposed sanctions against Russia and there can be no doubt about the US Government's position on this war.Vanadium 50 said:How can it be sedition? The US is at peace with both sides of this conflict.
if instead of the previous 'reset' Putin had got an adequate response the present war would not have happenedneilparker62 said:I think we need a 'reset'
Poland, on the other hand, may not wish to be quite so complacent.256bits said:I seriously doubt that an attack on Poland is in the cards.
Maximizing profits I think, I can't see any other wisdom besides that. I also don't believe CEO's and shareholders of large corporations aren't informed of the policies of the countries they are doing business with.vela said:It wasn't exactly unforeseeable that Putin would make a move like this. It makes one question the wisdom of doing business in a place like Russia or China.
Then NATO must engage in military attack directly with Russia plain and simple, which means US will have to fight Russia. If for whatever reason NATO mumbles the response or fails to respond then NATO is effectively dead and can disband altogether.pinball1970 said:If he dares attack Poland? NATO?
And note that they currently hold a maneuver in Kaliningrad aka Königsberg. At least, this is what I read yesterday!artis said:Then NATO must engage in military attack directly with Russia plain and simple, which means US will have to fight Russia. If for whatever reason NATO mumbles the response or fails to respond then NATO is effectively dead and can disband altogether.
This is the worry some have here in the Baltics, what would happen if Russia decided to roll in and take some small part first , given we are in NATO would NATO countries be willing to risk a nuclear war with Russia to keep up the 5th article that says that "attack one one is an attack on all"
And those laws say that sedition is about fomenting rebellion, which isn't at play here.hutchphd said:sedition
There are laws about sedition for a reason.
Eventually misinformation reaches the stage where it threatens the very survival of free democracies. Ultimately Tucker Carlson may be free to say what he likes, but others are free to hate him from the very bottom of their hearts for saying it.russ_watters said:It is far worse to advocate/employ Russian style attacks against a media outlet than for a media outlet to spread Russian style misinformation.
I don't believe that's a thing. I believe and trust in the principles of democracy and argue that you can't promote democracy with autocracy.PeroK said:Eventually misinformation reaches the stage where it threatens the very survival of free democracies.
Yes. Just please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.Ultimately Tucker Carlson may be free to say what he likes, but others are free to hate him from the very bottom of their hearts for saying it.
Which prompted my original posting which was banned.PeroK said:Ultimately Tucker Carlson may be free to say what he likes, but others are free to hate him from the very bottom of their hearts for saying it.
And please don't bomb the baby out of the bath water because you believe there are chemical weapons being manufactured in an apartment building.russ_watters said:Yes. Just please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Democracy is not indestructible. It's been destroyed in Russia over the past 20 years. It's being destroyed in the Ukraine. And if Tucker Carlson helps bring about that destruction, then it may be the lesser of two evils to shut him up.russ_watters said:I don't believe that's a thing. I believe and trust in the principles of democracy and argue that you can't promote democracy with autocracy.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...realm-of-possibility-un-chief-says/ar-AAV4sW0U.N. Secretary General António Guterres said Monday that the prospect of nuclear conflict is “now back within the realm of possibility” after Russian President Vladimir Putin raised the alert levels of the country’s nuclear forces last month.
In remarks to reporters, Guterres called Putin’s move a “bone-chilling development” and said further escalation of the war in Ukraine would threaten all of humanity. “It’s time to stop the horror unleashed on the people of Ukraine and get on the path of diplomacy and peace,” he said.
Nine countries in the world have a combined nuclear arsenal containing 12,700 warheads, according to the Federation of American Scientists. About 90 percent of them are held by Russia and the United States, which have about 6,000 and 5,400 warheads, respectively.
Nuclear deterrence works, unfortunately, in this case.The prospect of nuclear war with Russia has deterred the United States and its NATO allies from setting up a no-fly zone in Ukraine or supplying the besieged country with fighter jets.
Do you really believe Russia had a functional democracy 20 years ago?!PeroK said:Democracy is not indestructible. It's been destroyed in Russia over the past 20 years.
I really hope you (et al) don't realize what you're saying here. You are advocating we adopt Russia's tactics of jailing reporters for disagreeing with the government. I thought we all agreed this(as part of a whole) was one of the primary means by which Putin holds his power?It's being destroyed in the Ukraine. And if Tucker Carlson helps bring about that destruction, then it may be the lesser of two evils to shut him up.
Russia was a functional anarchy in the 90's if we want to be blunt about itruss_watters said:Do you really believe Russia had a functional democracy 20 years ago?!
https://apnews.com/article/russia-u...iness-moscow-d357f90e5a332e10abd8e2b7c7be67c7KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Russia’s relentless bombardment of Ukraine edged closer to central Kyiv as a series of strikes hit a residential neighborhood Tuesday, while the leaders of three European Union countries planned a bold visit to Ukraine’s capital and the number of people the war has driven from the country passed 3 million.
Shortly before dawn, large explosions thundered across Kyiv from what Ukrainian authorities said were artillery strikes. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said barrages hit four multi-story buildings in the city and caused dozens of deaths.
The strikes targeted a western district of Kyiv, disrupting a relative calm that returned after an initial advance by Russian forces was stopped in the early days of the war. Tuesday’s shelling ignited a huge fire in a 15-story apartment building and spurred a frantic rescue effort.
How do you define “the West”?
The West is a series of institutions and values. The West is not a geographical place. Russia is European, but not Western. Japan is Western, but not European. “Western” means rule of law, democracy, private property, open markets, respect for the individual, diversity, pluralism of opinion, and all the other freedoms that we enjoy, which we sometimes take for granted. We sometimes forget where they came from. But that’s what the West is. And that West, which we expanded in the nineties, in my view properly, through the expansion of the European Union and NATO, is revived now, and it has stood up to Vladimir Putin in a way that neither he nor Xi Jinping expected.
We're not living in a perfect world. You can follow some abstract rules and/or you can follow what you believe to be right. We have to assess the risks of each course of action. Especially if it comes to war, then our surivial may depend on unity rather than freedom of speech.russ_watters said:I really hope you (et al) don't realize what you're saying here. You are advocating we adopt Russia's tactics of jailing reporters for disagreeing with the government. I thought we all agreed this(as part of a whole) was one of the primary means by which Putin holds his power?
PeroK said:We're not living in a perfect world. You can follow some abstract rules and/or you can follow what you believe to be right. We have to assess the risks of each course of action. Especially if it comes to war, then our surivial may depend on unity rather than freedom of speech.
There are already limitations on free speech. The crime of perjury exists even in the US. Incitement to violence. Slander and libel. False accounting. Fraud and misrepresentation. Tax evasion.
Moreover, I suspect Tucker Carlson would never allow others the freedom of speech if he and his kind ever seize control. In that sense, my opposition to him might feel like a necessary act of self-preservation. I can't close my eyes to these risks and pretend they don't exist. I'd play by the rules as long as possible, but eventually if I feel sufficiently threatened then it would be madness not to fight back.
That's a self contradiction, but to sort it out, the 1st amendment is a rule (law), not an abstraction.PeroK said:We're not living in a perfect world. You can follow some abstract rules...
Putin wholeheartedly agrees....and/or you can follow what you believe to be right.
Especially if it comes to war, then our surivial may depend on unity rather than freedom of speech.
Yes, but the one put on the table here is elimination of the core function of freedom of speech. The very reason for its existence.There are already limitations on free speech.
An act of self contradiction. You'd hand him that power that you say you are afraid of him wielding.Moreover, I suspect Tucker Carlson would never allow others the freedom of speech if he and his kind ever seize control. In that sense, my opposition to him might feel like a necessary act of self-preservation.
So...sedition (which by the way is what we advocate for Russia). What a tangled mess.I can't close my eyes to these risks and pretend they don't exist. I'd play by the rules as long as possible, but eventually if I feel sufficiently threatened then it would be madness not to fight back.
I respect that is what you believe, but I have a different opinion that democracy may be destroyed in the US because powerful forces are undermining it from within. The institutions of democracy are being torn down in any case: witness the riots at the Capitol last year.russ_watters said:Democracy works because we believe in and faithfully follow its principles. Tearing down the institutions of democracy to prevent someone from tearing down the institutions of democracy is the self-sabotage way to lose democracy
fresh_42 said:officially confirmed about 700 civilian deaths, 100 of them were children, and the actual numbers are presumably higher.
600+ was the last number I read from the council in The Hague that investigates war crimes.Office_Shredder said:I don't know who gets to "officially" confirm things, but Ukraine says 2500 civilians have died in Mariupol alone. 700 is so low I question its value as a number - it's not obviously right to within a factor of 10 even.
We will only be able to confirm after this conflict, assuming Russia doesn't occupy that part of Ukraine, or the entire country.Office_Shredder said:I don't know who gets to "officially" confirm things, but Ukraine says 2500 civilians have died in Mariupol alone. 700 is so low I question its value as a number - it's not obviously right to within a factor of 10 even.
