artis said:
I'm not sure what exactly you refuse to buy? You basically argued against something which I did not say.
My claim was not that the Russian army became like this recently. It has always been like that and somewhat for the very reason you dismissed - which is the low education and harsh backgrounds of many of it's conscripts.
To use your own phrases , no not even "country bumpkins" are the same everywhere, yes people do have a capability towards violence but the background in which they grow up matters alot.
I had a friend who grew up in an orphanage , he said himself that he was probably the only guy in his "class" in the orphanage who doesn't commit violence on a daily basis. He even got raped by his very "friends" while in the orphanage.
And yet this is not how I remember my childhood while growing up in a family , nor were my friends violent thugs nor did we rape each other.
So once more I'm not sure what you find so hard to buy in what I said.
The fact that the Soviet army wasn't much better during WW2 is exactly for the very reasons I said.
And then again it wasn't the whole army, there were soldiers who had good conscience who did not partake in those lusts.
I know a dozen people who had served in the Red army whom I have talked stuff like this over I could tell you even the specific nationalities and ethnicities that were among the most violent within that army, but I won't do it here because it will easily be labeled racism and stir up some negative feedback.In fact one of your provided links actually hints at one of the reasons I would have explained
Germans had their fair share of atrocities too, but they were less brutal , more polite and had higher manners even during war (on average), as my now gone relatives told me when I was a kid from their personal experience, and there is a good explanation for that, again background. Germany had a much higher standard of living and culture and everything else pre WW2 than Russia.
Recall few years ago immigrants from the middle east raped women in Germany during New Year's eve, there wasn't even a war happening, again background. Anyone who knows about the average background that people grow up in various middle eastern countries would understand.
But the point is this, background matters alot. People have very different approach to life in the far east and many of the "stans" countries than in the west.
PS. I have seen the Stanford prison experiment, yes good movie.
1. I don't buy the premise that the people committing the rape & torture etc in the Russian army are all solely (or mainly) recruits from incredibly distant & backwards parts of Russia (that basically, Russians who come from the cities etc are quite frankly too civilized to behave like this).
2. I don't really get the relevance of your orphanage story.
3. My argument is that military/wartime environments can bring out the worst in anyone (regardless of their prior background) and that a darkness in the human spirit dwells in most people (and that it doesn't take as much as you'd think to bring this out).
4. If you are familar with the Stanford Prison Experiment, then you can surely appreciate how anyone's behaviour can change under the right conditions (regardless of their background).
5.
"Germans had their fair share of atrocities too, but they were less brutal , more polite and had higher manners even during war (on average), as my now gone relatives told me when I was a kid from their personal experience, and there is a good explanation for that, again background. Germany had a much higher standard of living and culture and everything else pre WW2 than Russia."
Sorry, but this is hilarious. My grandfather spent years in POW camps during WW2 and he have
hugely disagreed with you that the Germans were "
less brutal , more polite and had higher manners even during war". Do you realize who you are talking about here? U'know, the ones who committed massive crimes against humanity and war crimes, who tortured & killed endless people in the concentration camps?
My grandfather 1st hand experienced and witnessed war crimes being committed in those camps and I 100% believe him when he told me the Nazi guards were absolutely savage towards the POWs (I've heard his stories).
I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who says that the Germans were a better type of person during war because of their creed, because it ignores insanely huge bodies of both real world evidence, stuff like the Nuremburg Trials, millions of eye witness statements and so much more. Although I have some German blood in my ancestry, even I would never argue nor believe that the Germans are somehow a better breed of people or behaved better than others in war because of their background/heritage.
When you go on about your life VS the orphans or stuff like Germans & central Russians being people of too good a background people to commit rape & torture etc upon others during times of war, you don't come across to me as someone who is worldly, but someone who has led an incredibly sheltered existence (and who may even hold a certain arrogance about themself, believing themself to be an innately better variety of person than others because of their own background/breeding).
(IMHO) pretty much all & any people's are capable of great cruelty regardless of their backgrounds.
Edit: Thinking like yours disturbs me as its exactly thinking like this which evidences the historical whitewashing and denial that is becoming increasingly apparent amongst people today regarding past events like WW2. It is also thinking like yours that often leads to many of the worst episodes of history not only being repeated, but people also failing to adequately address or combat them as they occur in real-time.
