Navy serviceman accused of trying to sell classified military documents

  • #26
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Yes. I think the lack of fear of punishment plays a significant role in these cases. If these guys put any thought into their crime before committing it, they may have had this thought:

'If I get caught leaving the room with this flash drive full of classified documents and I don't get a good lawyer and have a sympathetic jury, I may go to jail for a while.'

But they probably didn't have this thought:

'If I get caught leaving the room with this flash drive full of classified documents, they'll probably shoot me tomorrow.'

The second has a significantly higher deterrent value than the first. Once upon a time, the second was a reality, but it isn't today. I'll repeat my rephrain: society does not take security seriously anymore.
you think people were more serious about keeping a lid on information before 9/11 ? because i remember that being one of the key problems cited, a lack of sharing. if so, you've got to consider how much it's going to gum up the works when you start putting people before firing squads.

if you're serious about this, you'll need to actually spend the money on physical security. Manning should never have been able to walk out with documents that were readable with any off-the-shelf technology. and if it's not worth investing in appropriate security, then it's probably not worth shooting anyone over.
 
  • #27
Now what happens if they (or someone else) begin ponying up money for tips, like your local TV station and breaking news footage? I doubt that they'd get a whole lot more than their appeal to ideology, but it sure would've been appealing to the navy guy in question.

On the other hand, they'd probably be overwhelmed by ever Tom, Klaus, and Mata (and tin-foiler, besides) claiming to have evidence of malfeasance or conspiracy.
First, let me just say that it's a pleasure to see someone so familiar with MICE and how it truly is global.

OK, to the money, if you're receiving a tip or token payment I think I'd have to agree that the motive is still ideology... and ego. Remember that for Manning, once he gave a shred of that information to Assange, he fell into the C in MICE... he was compromised and could be coerced. As it happens the little bastard didn't need to be coerced, but he also didn't need to be paid. If Wikileaks became a serious financial entity I think it would be treated as a kind of independent espionage service. In fact, that's probably how we should deal with them now... not by panicking or lashing out, but recognizing that motive aside we have a new player in the game:

That player is... not just the internet... it's the number of people around the world with access and knowledge. There was a time when a Pfc. Manning simply could NOT have moved that kind of information so quickly... in that sense I come to a final point for Russ...

Do we really have worse security or is it a matter of not keeping up with the times? I don't think the emphasis on security has changed, but now the tools are so lacking that the asymmetry in this war has us in the shoes of the Lilliputian. We need a national policy that reaches from password and other basic security skills in schools, up to reworking our "cyber"security.
 
  • #28
MATLABdude
Science Advisor
1,655
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Remember that for Manning, once he gave a shred of that information to Assange, he fell into the C in MICE...
I hadn't heard about the compromise angle (I thought you meant the fact that he was gay, but he apparent wasn't telling and nobody asked), but the speculation from Adrian Lamo (the hacker that outted him) is that it was a mix of ideology and ego, hence my quoting of Nathan Hale (different ideology but still the same idea--'information wants to be free' would've been too cliche):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100726/us_yblog_upshot/22-year-old-army-officer-bradley-manning-at-center-of-wikileaks-firestorm [Broken]

Lamo doesn't think Manning had the expertise / access to do it on his own. According to Manning's Wikipedia entry, he has delusions of grandeur. Wikileaks (as far as I know) hasn't corroborated Manning as the source of the leaks. Could his confession (well after the Iraq / Afghan papers and apache footage) have been just a big fish tale?
 
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  • #29
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Nasa just admitted to leaking a bunch of classified data by dumping hard drives containing the data in a public dumpster. http://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY11/IG-11-009.pdf

I'm assuming the managers responsible will be facing prison time or at least a Swedish arrest warrant and some calls for the head of Nasa to be assassinated, by some of our more excitable politicians.
Death by dumpster seems a bit harsh. However, the person(s) should at minimum lose their jobs and any insurance benefits. They should not be eligible for unemployment benefits and their pensions should be used to pay against any losses or damages - IMO.
 
  • #30
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No problem!

Here is article 106a of the UCMJ:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106a.htm
From your link, I found this:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/gangs.htm


"Gang Activity in the U.S. Military"
"According to a recently released FBI report, Gang-related activity in the US military is increasing and poses a threat to law enforcement officials and national security.

The report, Gang Activity in the U.S. Armed Forces Increasing, dated January 12, states that members of nearly every major street gang have been identified on both domestic and international military installations. Members of nearly every major street gang, including the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups, have been documented on military installations. Although most prevalent in the Army, the Army Reserves, and the National Guard, gang activity is pervasive throughout all branches of the military and across most ranks, but is most common among the junior enlisted ranks, according to the report.
"
 
  • #31
Members of nearly every major street gang, including the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups,
Could be a good system, simply replace 'regiments' with 'gangs', 'colors' with 'colors', and set them fighting the enemy.
The only overall difference is they will have better weapons, lower administrative overhead, and slightly less inter-service hatred and rivalry than currently exists.
 
  • #32
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From your link, I found this:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/gangs.htm


"Gang Activity in the U.S. Military"
"According to a recently released FBI report, Gang-related activity in the US military is increasing and poses a threat to law enforcement officials and national security.

The report, Gang Activity in the U.S. Armed Forces Increasing, dated January 12, states that members of nearly every major street gang have been identified on both domestic and international military installations. Members of nearly every major street gang, including the Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords, and various white supremacist groups, have been documented on military installations. Although most prevalent in the Army, the Army Reserves, and the National Guard, gang activity is pervasive throughout all branches of the military and across most ranks, but is most common among the junior enlisted ranks, according to the report.
"
Well yes, the military is a cross section of America. Of course there are gang members. 'Gang activity' being 'pervasive' on the other hand, I would question. I have never seen anything that would make it seem common at all, and I've lived in the most grim part of Camp Lejeune for four years.

I have seen brutal violence (stabbings, beatings, etc), drug sale/use, etc. All varieties of illegal activities, but nothing would suggest that these events where connected to a greater organisation. Perhaps their criteria is simply, 'if a gang member/former gang member commits a crime, it is gang activity'?
 
  • #33
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Well yes, the military is a cross section of America. Of course there are gang members. 'Gang activity' being 'pervasive' on the other hand, I would question. I have never seen anything that would make it seem common at all, and I've lived in the most grim part of Camp Lejeune for four years.

I have seen brutal violence (stabbings, beatings, etc), drug sale/use, etc. All varieties of illegal activities, but nothing would suggest that these events where connected to a greater organisation. Perhaps their criteria is simply, 'if a gang member/former gang member commits a crime, it is gang activity'?
It would demonstrate a lack of discipline and disregard of military rules - never a good thing and quite on-point with the thread.
 
  • #34
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It would demonstrate a lack of discipline and disregard of military rules - never a good thing and quite on-point with the thread.
The military (Marine Corps Infantry is my only experience) is far beyond anything you can imagine. We are violent warriors who go into combat zones with little to nothing for months at a time, watch our friends die, retaliate with full force, return home to horrible living conditions and complete lack of respect from anyone in our command, forced to do insanely degrading things, and are put into living areas with hundreds of other men in the same situation.

We are HIGHLY disciplined, but we are still fighters, still young men. Not everyone engages in these activities, but if one of my brothers was to engage an agressor and it escalates into a fist fight, I would not ridicule him. The things he carries with him everyday would be mind blowing to the average person, often before his 19th birthday. A breakdown in discipline do to emotions is human. We are humans, not machines. These situations are nothing like the ones being discussed here, as the men I am talking about are patriots who would sooner slit their own throat than speak against their brothers.

This applies to drug use as well.

Sorry for the rant, but these are two very very different things.

EDIT: Also, this was written from my phone so pardon any ridiculous mistakes, haha.
 
  • #35
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The military (Marine Corps Infantry is my only experience) is far beyond anything you can imagine. We are violent warriors who go into combat zones with little to nothing for months at a time, watch our friends die, retaliate with full force, return home to horrible living conditions and complete lack of respect from anyone in our command, forced to do insanely degrading things, and are put into living areas with hundreds of other men in the same situation.

We are HIGHLY disciplined, but we are still fighters, still young men. Not everyone engages in these activities, but if one of my brothers was to engage an agressor and it escalates into a fist fight, I would not ridicule him. The things he carries with him everyday would be mind blowing to the average person, often before his 19th birthday. A breakdown in discipline do to emotions is human. We are humans, not machines. These situations are nothing like the ones being discussed here, as the men I am talking about are patriots who would sooner slit their own throat than speak against their brothers.

This applies to drug use as well.

Sorry for the rant, but these are two very very different things.

EDIT: Also, this was written from my phone so pardon any ridiculous mistakes, haha.
I understand the level that you run at - the breakdown isn't the fighting, competition, and humanity - it's the drug sales comment - never acceptable.
 
  • #36
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I agree, and my post came across way harsher than I meant it to, I'm sorry for that. Also the events (besides fighting) I mentioned are not common, just things I've seen over the years.

EDIT: I would especially like to retract the idiotic comment I made about the military being 'beyond anything you can imagine'. That was very insulting and I'm embarrased that I even said it. Sorry man.
 
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  • #37
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I agree, and my post came across way harsher than I meant it to, I'm sorry for that. Also the events (besides fighting) I mentioned are not common, just things I've seen over the years.
I'll venture a guess that anyone as involved with his "brothers" as you've described - would most likely never engage in un-patriotic activities (like the Wikileaks theft or the Fort Hood shootings) - my guess is the loner that doesn't fit in or joined for the wrong reasons is the one most likely to go bad (yes - I agree that smacks of profiling).
 
  • #38
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I'll venture a guess that anyone as involved with his "brothers" as you've described - would most likely never engage in un-patriotic activities (like the Wikileaks theft or the Fort Hood shootings) - my guess is the loner that doesn't fit in or joined for the wrong reasons is the one most likely to go bad (yes - I agree that smacks of profiling).
I agree, you are right. I went off on some pent-up (unneeded) rant in my post that didn't move the discussion forward. Out of thousands of people there will always be a few that will do things like this, unfortunatly.
 
  • #39
MATLABdude
Science Advisor
1,655
4
This is somewhat tangential, but gang members (and, although it's not mentioned militia / white supremacist types) going into the military for the express purpose of military training is probably more moral panic than anything. I'm told there was similar panic about the (then-newly) integrated armed forces producing legions of combat-veteran Black Panthers (or the likes) during Vietnam, but a cursory search didn't turn up anything (perhaps some of the older forum members will weigh in?)

Every so often, you read about guys who were given the choice of going to jail, or joining the army (don't know if that's acceptable these days)--I'd like to think that at least some of them ended up turning their lives around, instead of just becoming more dangerous criminals. Same deal with kids who were in (or around) gangs or 'militias'.
 
  • #40
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This is somewhat tangential, but gang members (and, although it's not mentioned militia / white supremacist types) going into the military for the express purpose of military training is probably more moral panic than anything. I'm told there was similar panic about the (then-newly) integrated armed forces producing legions of combat-veteran Black Panthers (or the likes) during Vietnam, but a cursory search didn't turn up anything (perhaps some of the older forum members will weigh in?)

Every so often, you read about guys who were given the choice of going to jail, or joining the army (don't know if that's acceptable these days)--I'd like to think that at least some of them ended up turning their lives around, instead of just becoming more dangerous criminals. Same deal with kids who were in (or around) gangs or 'militias'.
well, if you want to expand that, we also grant citizenship to foreign nationals in exchange for military service. so if you want to bring up issues of allegiance regarding sensitive info...
 

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