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CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons

  1. Nov 2, 2005 #1

    Astronuc

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    Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11 (as well they should! No question. It's immoral! It's evil!)

    By Dana Priest, Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, November 2, 2005

    Unbelievable!
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html?sub=AR
    registration required
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 2, 2005 #2
    But Astronuc, we all know that the Constitution doesn't apply to foreigners, and that officials acting in the name of the U.S. government aren't bound by it when they're on foreign soil. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Nov 2, 2005 #3
    Tonight I watched an indepth TV report on events leading up to and what happened to Australian citizen David Hicks after the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan 'sold' him to US troops for $1000 (don't ask me - how can people be 'bought' and 'sold' like that in this day and age?). He is currently held at Gitmo and is, apparently, going to be 'tried' before a 'military tribunal' next month.

    It was harrowing stuff - especially the way he was beaten and otherwise assaulted and the conditions under which this happened (he was specifically flown by helicopter off a US ship and taken to an undisclosed location where he was beaten for hours and otherwise assaulted). Here is a summary of the report: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc2/200511/programs/NC0504H018D2112005T190000.htm. It really worries me that the Australian government does not seem to care whether or not he will have a fair trial, under what conditions whatever 'confessions' he has made were made, etc. If his father wasn't around trying to do whatever little he can to support him, no-one would even know about this young man who has already had four years of his life 'suspended'.

    So what's happened to 'democratic rights to a fair trial' and the 'Geneva Convention' and all that? This is truly atrocious and unacceptable, even from the mildest liberal perspective.
     
  5. Nov 2, 2005 #4
    There was a point both in Afghanistan and Iraq when U.S. intellegence was giving monetary rewards to anyone who turned in a suspected Al Queda, or insergent member. No proof was needed and no questions were asked. This resulted in Pakistanis "selling" thousands of people who were merely refugees from the violence in Afghanistan.

    http://www.refuseandresist.org/detentions/art.php?aid=2043
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2005
  6. Nov 2, 2005 #5
    America also outsources prisoners for extreme interrogation ie torture. Egypt and Israel along with several other middle eastern countries are the most common destinations for the prisoners.
    The program is called "extraordinary rendition".

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/18/opinion/courtwatch/main674973.shtml

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1237589,00.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2005
  7. Nov 2, 2005 #6
    I've heard about this tons of times already, I thought everybody already knew and that the news media simply didn't care...
     
  8. Nov 2, 2005 #7
    it blows my mind that people could be put through such an experience as the conditions of american hospitality because someone else wanted to make some money.
     
  9. Nov 2, 2005 #8
    The media has not been doing their job to be sure.

    The first concern is principles Americans value, and the example we set in the world. The second always is the opening of the door that could lead to abuses against American citizens themselves. Who says we do not need to fear the loud knock on our door in the middle of the night?
     
  10. Nov 24, 2005 #9

    Astronuc

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    European Union is looking into possible secret prisons used by US.
    By WILLIAM J. KOLE (AP)
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051124...U9w24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

    Off course, this is just under investigation, and could simply be a baseless allegation.

    However, it is interesting that the US government will have another base of operation within striking distance of Iran and other middle-eastern countries. It is also disturbing given the secrecy of the Bush administration.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2005
  11. Dec 1, 2005 #10

    Art

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    It appears one of these camps is in Kosovo.
    http://www.sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,9353,17374301-28779,00.html
     
  12. Dec 1, 2005 #11
    Jack Straw is currently under pressure to provide a yay or nay about whether UK airports are being used by CIA planes as stop-off points to rendition prisoners. He has apparently sought the advise of Condy Rice as to whether this is indeed what the planes are being used for (like a CIA plane lands in the UK and the cabinet doesn't know why).

    Rice has a wonderful habit of speaking frankly with the UK so many she'll own up.

    It would be interesting to know what will happen if Straw confirms the allegation, since it is prohibited by British law. Sure, they will claim as they are now that they had no knowledge guv I just work here, but then surely they'll have to stop the CIA landing there.

    How will the US react to that? A piddling little island telling them where they can and can't land their planes?!? I don't see it happening myself.

    An earlier post stated that this policy was introduced 4 years ago, but the New Statesman article (the first I saw on renditioning, and few have followed) about a year ago said this goes way back to Clinton. Nonetheless, the number of renditionees jumped from a few hundred to several thousand under Bush, according to the article. I'll see if I can find it on-line.
     
  13. Dec 1, 2005 #12

    Art

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    Shannon airport in Ireland is the more likely pit stop. Most of the U.S. traffic heading for the gulf passes through there.
     
  14. Dec 1, 2005 #13
    Ah, so they have a back-up stop-off. Unless Ireland also kick up a fuss.
     
  15. Dec 1, 2005 #14

    Art

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    The Irish people did but the government ignored them. U.S. investment plays a huge part in the Irish economy.
     
  16. Dec 1, 2005 #15
    I don't get what the problem is here. Shall we NOT interrogate terror suspects? Should we turn every terror suspect situation into a public fiasco like the OJ Simpson trial? Get real.
     
  17. Dec 1, 2005 #16

    PerennialII

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    The European countries & their citizens in particular have quite a problem in digesting any sort of involvement in "Guantanamo-like" actions of the US.
     
  18. Dec 1, 2005 #17

    Astronuc

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    Are you willing to be tortured because someone names you as a terrorist, although I image you are not a terrorist?

    It is one thing to be questioned as part of an investigation, it is quite another thing to be tortured, particularly when one is innocent. The vast majority of suspects have been released without charge, which presumably means they were not involved in terrorism, nor did they have knowledge of terrorists or their activities.

    Some people have been identified as terrorists or suspects because someone named them in exchange for money or other consideration. It has been a good way for some to get even with another.

    I firmly believe, the presumed 'innocent until proven guilty' applies to all persons, not just US citizens.
     
  19. Dec 1, 2005 #18
    I'm not totally against your idealogy but just how do we go about getting information from people that could save innocent lives? Unfortunately torture is necessary. Politically incorrect but necessary. You really don't want to know what happens behind closed doors in an effort to keep civilization civil and terrorism from happening. And, unfortunately, innocent people are going to get caught up in it. I would not blame the CIA or similar organizations as much as I would blame the terrorists that make this kind of process necessary.

    A loose analogy might be that innocent people are also given life sentences in courts of law for crimes they didn't commit. Shall we quit prosecuting anyone that says "I didn't do it" because of the remote chance that they are telling the truth? The process sucks but it's the best one we have.
     
  20. Dec 1, 2005 #19
    Necessary? I would hardly imagine it an effective way to gather information. Innocent people crack under torture, inevitably leading to false confessions just because they wanted to end the pain. Even if they were terrorists, they would probably have been trained to be resistant against torture.

    Place yourself in some of these peoples' shoes, would you want to be tortured for the sake of national security, even if you were innocent? And if you were innocent, whose lives would be saved?
     
  21. Dec 1, 2005 #20
    The secret CIA prisons did not just magically appear overnight.
    I have a gut feeling that these same prisons and torture tactics were used to obtain much of the information on Iraq's WMD which later turned out to be untrue.:grumpy:

    The worst is that the rest of the world no longer sees the USA as being the "good guys". And as we have also seen ourselves as bing of high moral character, we have lost a quality that we have cherished for over one hundred years.
     
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